D&D General DM Authority

[Charlaquin]

Can I ask a serious question. Not being sarcastic.

If you saw someone playing chess against themselves. And they insisted that their version of chess is just as much chess as the people who play against opponents. Would you say their definition of chess is valid? Skewed? Correct? What word would go there?

Playing chess against yourself is absolutely playing chess. You can’t even describe such an activity without using the words “playing chess.”

 

[el-remmen]

Ha! To me it's ALL D&D.

When I play Pathfinder, I say "Let's get this D&D game going!"

Heck I've had conversations like this:

Me: I'm playing D&D this weekend
Persona: Oh? what are you playing?
Me: Vampire.

It's like saying "Coke" or "Polaroid" to me.

 

[Maxperson]

When the people making the claim of one-true-wayism agree that it’s about judgement and not about universality... it’s about judgement and not about universality.

Then it's not about One True Wayism. For there to be One True Wayism involved, the person has to be claiming that there is only ONE True Way, and even if Oofta's statement is treated as a declaration, it still wouldn't say that there is only one way to play, only that the one way in question is wrong. Not that Oofta even said that much.

You’re making my case for me here. You can find people who hold opposing positions to any claim, therefore merely acknowledging that your claim isn’t universal doesn’t absolve you of the implications of your claim.

No I'm not making your case.

The Ship of Theseus argument doesn’t work here because whether or not it’s the same ship, it’s still the Argo. It might be that at some point the Argo became a different sailing vessel, but this new vessel is still a ship that is called the Argo. Likewise you can house rule D&D to the point that it no longer resembles itself, but it’s still D&D, even if it’s a completely different game than what you started with.

If it looks like the Argo, sails like the Argo and quacks like the Argo, it's the Argo.

Marginalizing others’ play preferences is literally what One True Wayism is.

No it isn't. It also has to boil down to just ONE True Way. I mean, it's literally in the name. How can you miss that?

 

[Maxperson]

Yes. In addition, if you disagree and that in your opinion it is not, you are telling them they're playing wrong.

And at the same time, somehow telling them that your way is the only way to play.

 

[Charlaquin]

And at the same time, somehow telling them that your way is the only way to play.

Nobody is telling you you can’t play however you want.

 

[Maxperson]

This is a flawed analogy. Cobbler and pie are different things, and the distinction between them is vague and kind of arbitrary, yes. D&D and Tunnels and Trolls are different things, and the distinction between them is vague and kind of arbitrary. If you play D&D, differently than the rules describe, it’s still D&D, even if it may now more closely resemble Tunnels and Trolls. If you change a pie recipe, it’s still pie, even if it now more closely resembles cobbler.

Not resemble Tunnels and Trolls. Is now identical to Tunnels and Trolls. Same exact rule systems, except you think that starting with D&D rules somehow makes it still D&D. That's absurd. At some point changes cause the game to cease being D&D and become something else. Where that line is, I don't know exactly, but it's before you reach, "Identical rule systems to Tunnels and Trolls."

 

[Charlaquin]

Not resemble Tunnels and Trolls. Is now identical to Tunnels and Trolls. Same exact rule systems, except you think that starting with D&D rules somehow makes it still D&D. That's absurd. At some point changes cause the game to cease being D&D and become something else. Where that line is, I don't know exactly, but it's before you reach, "Identical rule systems to Tunnels and Trolls."

Sure, I agree with that. If you’ve house ruled D&D to have an identical ruleset to Tunnels and Trolls, you aren’t really playing D&D any more, you’re playing Tunnels and Trolls. I don’t think anyone would ever do that, but if they did, I think it would be a valid assessment to say they’re playing Tunnels and Trolls rather than D&D.

 

[Oofta]

I would assume that most people are going to say that D&D is quite flexible. People can add quite a few houserules or even simply rule differently to give a different feel to the game.

But ... if you change things enough at some point it will no longer be D&D. Where that point is will vary person by person. It becomes a custom game based on D&D.

Much like a cobbler is a pie that doesn't have a bottom crust[1] even though all the other ingredients may be the same, to me a game without a DM is not D&D in my opinion. Someone else may call it D&D just like in some parts of the country you can order a Mountain Dew coke. It's not wrong to call a pop/soda/soft drink/carbonated sugary beverage a coke. It's not wrong to call a game without a DM D&D. I just prefer pop.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I didn't say it wasn't D&D, and I didn't say it couldn't feel like D&D to anyone else. I was saying (indirectly, I'll acknowledge) that a large part of what makes D&D feel like D&D to me is the presence of the DM. I was trying to be as clear as possible that I was stating my own opinion--technically, my own sense of how I'd experience the game--and absolutely not judging the people who play that game that way.

It's clear that some people have phrased similar feelings more ... stridently than I think I did.

Could you play a dungeoncrawl-ish game of D&D, to some degree of approximation, without a DM, using random tables? Absolutely. Would that feel like D&D to me? I don't see how it would (see my first paragraph, here) but it's possible that I'm wrong about that.

Well, I get that. Honestly, playing without a DM not feeling like DnD is understandable.

However, as this conversation keeps going I need to keep making sure that the facts of the conversation aren't getting overwritten.

The post Oofta was responding to was one level removed from the "no DM" discussion. I was defending that a hack and slash megadungeons are DnD. Because it was stated that that style of play is not DnD.

I need this to stay clear, because as more and more people make this about both points, it becomes that I'm being intractable about No DM games, and that makes defending the points I was actually making harder.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Then we simply disagree. Castle Ravenloft is a board game to me. Some people may consider video games such as the Baldur's Gate series to be D&D as well and I don't.

Can you give any reason for that at all? I mean, I've never played it and I don't own it, so what about Ravenloft makes it not DnD?

A set map?
Pre-Generated Characters?
Pre-Set list of items?
Pre-made plot?