D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[JiffyPopTart]

The funny thing for me.

If halflings were a minor race. Like at the tier of hobgoblins or kobolds, I wouldn't care.

But it is halflings being the 4th most numerous and important race in the baseline assumption that gets me. I don't get how a standard bearer race is treated this way.

I can see your point.....if they went out of the way to give them the "Full Monty" treatment, they should also have gotten the "Full Monty" lore as well. Would you feel different if all the 5e PHB race choices had at least two subtypes and were just alphabetized instead of having one tier called out as being special despite them all being in the PHB?

Basically, do you think 5e made a mistake not treating all the race choices in the PHB equally? I've never really thought of it this way, but making the "lesser choices" also lesser fleshed out via rules and lore they kind of doom them to second class as much as the arbitrary division of the races into two buckets by calling some out as core. This then contrasts with the fact that halflings got the fleshed out rules treatment, but not the equivalent lore treatment.

I maintain that halfling lore is "good enough" but do see an asymmetry in how they are treated.

 

[Minigiant]

I can see your point.....if they went out of the way to give them the "Full Monty" treatment, they should also have gotten the "Full Monty" lore as well. Would you feel different if all the 5e PHB race choices had at least two subtypes and were just alphabetized instead of having one tier called out as being special despite them all being in the PHB?

I have no prblem with tiers. However no tiers would have been more open to more groups. However tiers allow you to naturally worldbuild.

Basically, do you think 5e made a mistake not treating all the race choices in the PHB equally?

no.
Ithink the mistake was stating there were tiers then not being serious about it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

if they went out of the way to give them the "Full Monty" treatment, they should also have gotten the "Full Monty" lore as well.

I feel like we have different definitions for "the Full Monty" or maybe different art in our PHBs.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Gnomes innately have minor illusion which covers a 5 ft cube and lasts a minute. If you're assuming that mid-to-high level illusionists can protect gnomes because gnomes are associated to illusionists, I can assume mid-to-high level bards can protect halflings because halflings are associated to bards.

There's no way a cantrip that lasts a single minute is going to make much of a difference unless half the population does nothing but cast cantrips 24X7. So choose. Mid-to-high level NPCs aid in protecting their brethren or they don't. If they do, my bard animating objects is fine and so is your illusionist buddy. If not then neither one happens.

So it says "Halflings are master bards" somewhere in the PHB? I must have missed that, can you cite how they are associated with bardic magic?

 

[Chaosmancer]

But I don't understand the obsession with them not being able to defend themselves. Yes, they use sticks and stones. That's all most small villages will have in most worlds.

No, they really don't.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You were the one who equated them to her. It's on you to prove the equivalence or concede that she does more for Halflings than they do for their followers.

Not my problem. They get it. That's what we have.

I have specifically mentioned the ones that they specifically mentioned, but they also implied other crafts and that those crafts were enough for the village to function.

Wow! A Strawman(I never said that) and a False Equivalence(equating skills to their luck and divine aid) in one sentence. You're outdoing yourself today.

Right, halflings lead a literal blessed existence, unchallenged by any gods, while the humans, elves and dwarves just make do.

Meanwhile, the practical skills they supposedly exhibit don't matter, because it is really just divine intervention. Hence why my challenge of "what skills are they none for" has ended with me being accused of a False Equivalence between skill and divine intervention.

I guess I'm just not satisfied with a race of "adventurers" who are coddled from birth to the grave by their gods.

 

[Maxperson]

Right, halflings lead a literal blessed existence, unchallenged by any gods, while the humans, elves and dwarves just make do.

Nawp! I never said that, either.

Meanwhile, the practical skills they supposedly exhibit don't matter, because it is really just divine intervention.

Nawp! Their practical skills are practical..........and skills. And they use them to help each other out. No gods involved at all there.

At this point it's clear that you have read neither the PHB entry for Halflings, nor the Halfling entry in Mordenkainen's. You should read both before you continue this discussion. Your lack of knowledge here is making you look bad.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Nawp! I never said that, either.

Nawp! Their practical skills are practical..........and skills. And they use them to help each other out. No gods involved at all there.

At this point it's clear that you have read neither the PHB entry for Halflings, nor the Halfling entry in Mordenkainen's. You should read both before you continue this discussion. Your lack of knowledge here is making you look bad.

I have read it all.

But when I asked what other skills, since you seemed to take offense at me wondering if they had some entry that gave them incredible skills in engineering or carpentry or really any of the things being listed that they could use to hide their villages, you refused to answer.

You just referenced this " Since a halfling community usually has less than a hundred members, cooperation is critical to their society, and each resident performs regular chores or offers benefits that support the population." as evidence that they all work together to do other crafts.

When I pointed out that "other crafts" is so vague that I can make the same claim for humans. And, since the idea of practically hiding the village without the use of magic was based, seemingly, on these other crafts, then humans can do the same thing.

To which you replied "a False Equivalence(equating skills to their luck and divine aid)"

Which, by the way, your claim since you seemed to have forgotten, is that the luck is divine aid too. So, I was equating skill to divine aid, according to you.



Which, like I said, really leaves us with this.

Why can't halfling villages be found? Because the Gods don't want them to be found.
Why can halflings grow so much food? Because the gods want to them grow so much food.
Why do halflings survive attacks, on the rare occasions that they are attacked? Because the gods want to them survive
If a halfling adventurer avoids a trap or an Ambush? It is because the Gods wanted them to (after all it was either their divine luck or the whispers of the Goddess who scouts ahead for them)


Why does a dwarf craft an exquisite blade? Because they are master metalworkers who have perfected their art over centuries.

Why does an elven song sound so beautiful? Because they are a people who love beauty, and will spend centuries perfecting a song.

Why are humans always pushing the boundaries of the world? Because they are a people with a burning ambition to stretch beyond what is known.

Why do halflings do anything? Because of the Gods. The gods provide them luck, protection, food, skills, everything for you always comes back to the halfling gods specifically interfering to make it happen.

And now you want to accuse me of having never read the material we are discussing. Because I don't want to except that the gods are somehow so much more active in the favor of halfling existence than they are for any other race.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I feel like we have different definitions for "the Full Monty" or maybe different art in our PHBs.

Have we NOT been discussing the write-up of halflings from the Book of Erotic Fantasy?

 

[Maxperson]

But when I asked what other skills, since you seemed to take offense at me wondering if they had some entry that gave them incredible skills in engineering or carpentry or really any of the things being listed that they could use to hide their villages, you refused to answer.

Because the bolded part is offensively dismissive. It's a fact that they have skills. It's a fact that those skills are good enough to get by. It's in the book you claim to have read.

You just referenced this " Since a halfling community usually has less than a hundred members, cooperation is critical to their society, and each resident performs regular chores or offers benefits that support the population." as evidence that they all work together to do other crafts.

Yep.

Except, since you read the entire section, you deliberately omitted the crafts portion, "One family might provide baked goods, while another one cobbles shoes or knits clothing."

It gives baking, cobbling and knitting as non-exhaustive examples of crafts Halflings engage in.

When I pointed out that "other crafts" is so vague that I can make the same claim for humans. And, since the idea of practically hiding the village without the use of magic was based, seemingly, on these other crafts, then humans can do the same thing.

This is an irrelevant Red Herring. We aren't talking about Humans. It doesn't matter if they have skills. And the second part is a Strawman, since literally no one here has said that they use the skills to hide.