D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Minigiant]

That still makes absolutely no sense to me, but thanks for trying to explain it. At this point, it may be best to just accept that your basic framework for how you look at the D&D races is fundamentally different from a lot of other peoples’.

I already do. I have stated as much.

But apparently my criticism of how TSR, WOTC, and many D&d adjacent designers means that I hate halflings.

I have been accused of hating halflings several times when I offer any criticism of how halflings are treated. It's basically a "How dare you say such a thing!" Some won't even admit that halflings are treated different.

Halflings are treated differently. I believe all iconic races should be treated in similar fashion.

Gimme a Hat of Halflingkind magic item and a picture of some badass halflings warriors and mages front and center in the PHB.

Not Bigbead Musician Number One Bighead Musician Number Two and Reject Bilbo Baggins.

 

[Oofta]

I already do. I have stated as much.

But apparently my criticism of how TSR, WOTC, and many D&d adjacent designers means that I hate halflings.

I have been accused of hating halflings several times when I offer any criticism of how halflings are treated. It's basically a "How dare you say such a thing!" Some won't even admit that halflings are treated different.

Halflings are treated differently. I believe all iconic races should be treated in similar fashion.

Gimme a Hat of Halflingkind magic item and a picture of some badass halflings warriors and mages front and center in the PHB.

Not Bigbead Musician Number One Bighead Musician Number Two and Reject Bilbo Baggins.

The problem is that "badass halfling warriors and mages" is not the niche they were going for. Their niche is the PC that adventures out of curiosity or need; the adventuring halfling is the oddball not the norm. They're the embodiment of the pastoral ideal, homebody story tellers happily working their fields. Not every race needs to be badasses in order to have interesting stories. Personally I think adventuring halflings can be more interesting because they aren't associated with badassery.

Then again, I think gnomes should have leaned more into the forest, illusionist or tinker gnome aspect with their artwork the gnome in the PHB with the bow just doesn't really seem to fit.

 

[Minigiant]

The problem is that "badass halfling warriors and mages" is not the niche they were going for. Their niche is the PC that adventures out of curiosity or need; the adventuring halfling is the oddball not the norm. They're the embodiment of the pastoral ideal, homebody story tellers happily working their fields. Not every race needs to be badasses in order to have interesting stories. Personally I think adventuring halflings can be more interesting because they aren't associated with badassery.

Then again, I think gnomes should have leaned more into the forest, illusionist or tinker gnome aspect with their artwork the gnome in the PHB with the bow just doesn't really seem to fit.

That's fine.
It's fine.
My point is...
It is different. It's niche.
The unusual usually are not placed at the tier of the usual.

But if I were to say to normalize halfling culture and image OR put Dragonborn in the common tier as a replacement for halflings as iconics...

 

[Gammadoodler]

Your stuck on handwaving but there's a critical difference in the kind of handwaving being done. The dwarf type problems you note amount do things like how does a race solve internal construction/enviromental & food supply problems when they are known to:

• embrace advanced forms of government allowing them to accomplish many of the following things
• somehow train enough skilled artisans & maintain the knowledge needed to be known for the skill of their smiths miners & magic item crafters
• maintain a tradition of skilled warriors with a source of income not involving raiding to suggest they are employed as some form of soldier by the local government or sponsoring merchants
• maintain a tradition of (divine) spellcasters.
• engage in friendly trade that involves both dwarves & other races.

The answer is simply through application of those things. The only thing other races need to have imposed on them is "yea we sell things like that to people with money & buy finished goods from skilled artisans" & that is the case for nearly every race

Halflings by contrast:

• Avoid trade
• apparently are not interested in money
• live in out-of-the-way areas. Usually this means remote or far away from civilization
• avoid advanced forms of governance
• lack a tradition of arcane or divine spellcasters
• make a mockery out of the idea of taking martial traditions seriously
• Love new things & good food but apparently these interests don't lead to the embrace of trade in some starfish alien induced paradox
• for some reason are protected by other races but since the halflings don't recognize their government structure, avoid engaging in trade that's done for no reason
• Somehow don't get taken over by the more advanced races investing blood & coin into protecting them out of the goodness of their hearts

Those are problems that cause problems for each other and force every other race to embrace an internally conflicting set of motivations when their own motivations could involve halflings.

I disagree.

 

[tetrasodium]

The problem is that "badass halfling warriors and mages" is not the niche they were going for.

That's a big problem because "badass halfling warriors and mages" does describe them in more than one wotc owned setting.

 

[Oofta]

That's a big problem because "badass halfling warriors and mages" does describe them in more than one wotc owned setting.

So if you want a badass halfling use one of those versions. What's the problem?

 

[Minigiant]

So if you want a badass halfling use one of those versions. What's the problem?

It's not official.

That's the whole argument. That WOTC and TSR treat the whole halfling race as silly little bumpkin side characters in the default assumption. So this causes/d many fans and designers to follow the trend.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Soldiers don't generally hang out in towns. Cities, sure. Raiders don't hit cities.

We presented evidence to the contrary in this thread. So, sorry about your luck on that one.

I never said finely crafted. Way to twist again.

No, @Oofta did. I'm sorry did you disagree with him when he proposed halflings making fine lace, glass figurines and all of those other finely crafted goods? I must of missed that exchange you two had.

Or maybe you ignored him in favor of agreeing that I had to be wrong about halfling trade. So hard to remember what points you disagreed with, since you never disagreed with any of them.

You forgot, "Svirfneblin Magic Prerequisite: Gnome (deep gnome) You have inherited the innate spellcasting ability of your ancestors. This ability allows you to cast nondetection on yourself at will, without needing a material component. You can also cast each of the following spells once with this ability: blindness/deafness, blur, and disguise self. You regain the ability to cast these spells when you finish a long rest. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for these spells."

And before you say, "But that's a feat and feats are optional!!!!," we know from the lore that deep gnomes have these abilities regardless. It's only PCs that might not have access to it.

I'm sorry, this is just hilarious.

You wanted me to go and get a racial feat for a subrace, and apply that to the gnomish race, while at the same time I'm being lambasted for daring to assume that they have anyone higher than 1st level, to use their illusion magic, which is as everyone has reminded me, only minor illusion and nothing else.

Oh! And for the race of gnomes who live in the underdark, who aren't the gnomes described in the PHB that everyone has been talking about.


Well, at least I know I can assume all wood Elves have Wood Elf magic to give them Pass Without a Trace and a druid cantrip, and all high elves can teleport. After all, if we need to assume racial feats for everyone...

 

[Chaosmancer]

Most of the village are commoners: they are only proficient in sticks, and rocks are a readily available improvised weapon.
The difference appears to be that rather than back off and let the guards handle the invaders, most of the village pitches in. Their stories and games don't just inspire them, they mean that even the commoners have practiced some basic tactical maneuvers.

This is not a PC-style D&D combat by the rules, where both sides line up and roll attack and damage against each other until everyone on one side is dead. The halflings don't even need to kill any of the attacking force. They just need to make each raider think "Ream this. They might take my eye out with the next rock. I'm just going to back off and maybe just swipe a sheep from that field as I head back."

I'm sorry, that is not what everyone has been telling me.

First of all, there are no guards. Depending on if I'm listening to @Maxperson or not guards and soldiers only exist in cities. Nothing smaller.

Oh! And I can't forget, Maxperson also claims that commoners are proficient in all simple weapons. So, if I am to believe him (and I'm always twisting everyone's words so I must be wrong and he must be right) they are proficient in weapons other than sticks and rocks.

Oh! And those aren't how they fight, those are religious ceremonies. Maxperson told me that too.


I mean, I only really suggested that they would need some weapons and a wall.Having trained in some basic tactical maneuvers is something I actually like. But, that was removing hope from the DnD world and making it a grimdark deathworld where civilization has died its last gasping breath.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, to clarify the branches of the conversation I have been involved with and my position on them, and where we differ.

1. Halflings can survive adequately within the setting with a similar amount of fantasy handwaving as other races. (I was the person who originally brought up fantasy plants).
@Maxperson ,@Oofta , @Sabathius42 , and @Paul Farquhar seem to agree, though the nature of handwaving may differ.

You seem to be unwilling to extend that level of handwaving to halflings in any form, and have cited various fantasy logistical, philosophical, or economic "reasons" for this unwillingness.

The fantasy plants was not something I said couldn't work. It was something that I said would alter the entire world if introduced like you said.

You then tried to tell me that everyone except halflings are commercial farmers while halflings are hobby farmers, so halflings can have these special plants, but no one else would grow them, because despite them being valuable spices, they wouldn't be the stuff everyone is selling.

And remember, my position, the thing I've been arguing for, is that halflings should have some sort of trained militia and defenses for their villages. Something I require of all of my races, meaning I extend the same requirements to every race. Everyone should have some sort of fighting force to deal with monsters and raids, and they should either have walls or be nomadic to defend their homes.

However, that is not acceptable to many people on this thread. Who instead insist I must hate halflings and run a world without joy and light, because I force them to fight to defend their homes.

2. Specifically related to gnomes vs. halflings. I asserted that, based on their core racial features and some extrapolation, it is not unreasonable that halflings could accomplish through skill what gnomes do through magic.

You went out of your way to "demonstrate" how this could not be so (though I haven't yet seen how you've demonstrated that the Gnomish version works: near as I can tell you've gotten to the word "illusionist" and stopped there)

And at various times folks have brought their own points of view or their own topical interests into the conversation, much in the same way that @tetrasodium and @Minigiant have.

As it relates to Paul and the dwarf thing, IIRC their original reply was to me. It did expand the discussion beyond halflings and gnomes, but it's not like this was a new strand of topic I was barging into, and it at least somewhat relates to both of the bullets above.

As it relates to Max and Oofta, we likely haven't gotten into side debates regarding stealth/safe halfling villages, because we all get to the same result, whatever the methods, and all of the methods boil down to some version of fantasy logic, and arguing fantasy logic is silly if the result is the same.

What core racial features of halflings are you referring to? Lucky or Brave? Maybe halfling nimbleness to move through spaces of larger creatures?

Oh, you were referring to the lightfoot ability to hide behind larger creatures. And then, by growing plants or making earthworks which have nothing to do with the ability to hide behind larger creatures, they could then hide their entire village, multi-acre farms, orchards, and any animals they have.

And yes, I didn't expand upon gnomes using illusions to hide their villages. What would you like me to do? List every illusion spell that lasts longer than a minute? Discuss the Illusionist subclass of wizard? Search out magical items that can affect a location that might be built by a race of natural artificers?

But, you see my problem. If I argue with you about practical skills hiding the village, then I get told by @Maxperson that I'm twisting the argument because it is the gods who hide them via god magic. And if I argue that that is just hand-waving, then I get told by you that I allowed handwaving because I didn't specify dwarven acreage and so I'm being a hypocrite because I hand wave all the time for everything.

No matter whose point I discuss, the other one will leap upon me for being a bad faith debater, force me to change arguments, just so the other one can repeat it for the other side.

And all I wanted was a trained militia and a wall. Hell, I have gnomes have a trained militia, and they have hidden villages via illusion magic. But, that just proves that I handwave everything because I can't possbily have gnomish militias, they don't have any stats to allow for fighting. Or something like that. Depends on which of you guys jumps down my throat first.