Pathfinder 2E Release Day Second Edition Amazon Sales Rank

[Justice and Rule]

Let's talk about your second point. I am not saying what you think I am saying. I am not saying it was selling in the 1000-2000 range up until 2014. I am saying we only have data from CamelCamelCamel going BACK TO 2014. But from 2014-2018, for that entire four year period, PF1 was selling in the 1000-2000 range. In other words, until Paizo announced PF2, PF1 was selling in the 1000-2000 range.

The RPG market was not, in any way, "completely different" in 2018. All the factors in play in 2018 were in play in the month prior to Covid, for instance. So no, I'll repeat: PF2 after only a few months is now selling lower than PF1 was selling, right up until the end of PF1 when PF2 was announced. Not four years ago (though ALSO four years ago), but JUST PRIOR.

Then I'll chalk that up to a misunderstanding. Mea cupla.

As for your third point, it's not correct. PF1 core rulebook is what was selling in the 1000-2000 range when 2e was announced. That's a fact. You can see it on the CamelCamelCamel chart I posted (though admittedly it's difficult to be precise, that's roughly the range). It was not doing "far worse in a good market" it was doing "far better". That's why I am talking about it.

That's what I got from @Porridge 's website. Here's the link if you desire it. Edit: Sorry, it doesn't do direct links. But here's the ASIN for it: 1601251505. I have no way of reconciling what you are saying and what it says.

Further Edit: I'm not trying to be combative or contrarian here, either, though I know I can come off that way. At this point I'm legitimately confused as to why these numbers don't match.

 

[kayman]

I mean that's great and all, but if your system hardly works on the most popular VTT, you have a problem (even if it's not Paizo's fault). Being good on Foundry is like making an app that isn't available on Apple or Google devices but works on Linux computers.
Which I think is the direction Paizo is going anyway. Pathfinder is becoming defiantly niche and proudly inaccessible to casual players. Their modules are about zany themes that don't connect with many players; their APs are so challenging that only the cream of the crop power gamers have a chance to survive.

But in what system Roll20 is better than Foundry? I ran AoA in roll20 and the amount of work i had was bizarre... In foundry ALL the content of "archive of nethys" is avaiable in the Compendium... and the module "PDF to Foundry" lets you import a lot of official PDFs .... I dont play 5e but i am tempted to think the experience in foundry is far better than in Roll 20 ...returning to PF2 ... The idea that i must buy the PDF twice in Roll20 is unbelievable... I should say the only reason someone still uses roll20 is that they had spent a lot of money and dont want to change or they simply dont know about foundry ...

 

[Mistwell]

Then I'll chalk that up to a misunderstanding. Mea cupla.



That's what I got from @Porridge 's website. Here's the link if you desire it. Edit: Sorry, it doesn't do direct links. But here's the ASIN for it: 1601251505. I have no way of reconciling what you are saying and what it says.

Further Edit: I'm not trying to be combative or contrarian here, either, though I know I can come off that way. At this point I'm legitimately confused as to why these numbers don't match.

That chart goes back to 2018, and is the same chart I am using for PF2.

I posted earlier the CamelCamelCamel screen shot which covers PF1 2014 to 2018. That's what I am comparing your chart, which picks up with PF2, to the old chart, which covers PF1.

From what I can tell, PF1 was selling at the 1000-2000 rank on Amazon until PF2 was announced. And, within a matter of a few months after PF2 was released, it was selling at the 3000+ rank. IE, PF2 is selling worse than PF1 was selling, even when PF1 was already very old.

 

[Justice and Rule]

That chart goes back to 2018, and is the same chart I am using for PF2.

I posted earlier the CamelCamelCamel screen shot which covers PF1 2014 to 2018. That's what I am comparing your chart, which picks up with PF2, to the old chart, which covers PF1.

From what I can tell, PF1 was selling at the 1000-2000 rank on Amazon until PF2 was announced. And, within a matter of a few months after PF2 was released, it was selling at the 3000+ rank. IE, PF2 is selling worse than PF1 was selling, even when PF1 was already very old.

Ah, I mixed up March and May on both. My bad.

 

[dave2008]

But in what system Roll20 is better than Foundry?

@Retreater didn't say better, he said "most popular," quite often a big difference between the two.

 

[Retreater]

But in what system Roll20 is better than Foundry? I ran AoA in roll20 and the amount of work i had was bizarre... In foundry ALL the content of "archive of nethys" is avaiable in the Compendium... and the module "PDF to Foundry" lets you import a lot of official PDFs .... I dont play 5e but i am tempted to think the experience in foundry is far better than in Roll 20 ...returning to PF2 ... The idea that i must buy the PDF twice in Roll20 is unbelievable... I should say the only reason someone still uses roll20 is that they had spent a lot of money and dont want to change or they simply dont know about foundry ...

Yeah, I also imported AoA into Roll20, and it was a lot of work, and still wasn't 100% right. Even worse than the work I had to do as GM was the extra work it put on my players - and that, to me, is what makes the experience unacceptable. Even after buying the rules modules, it has a substandard character creator and anemic compendium support.
So why I don't use Foundry....
First, I couldn't because I didn't have a computer that would run it. Now that I do, I could convert all my games, make my players learn a new system, etc, but we're already on Roll20, and it's working fine for what we do currently (which isn't PF2).
Second, I can access my game from any computer. If I'm on break at work, I can access my maps, characters, and make quick changes or look up information for my players. I don't have to be at my home computer at my home office. (This was a major problem when I lost everything in Fantasy Grounds when my dog destroyed my previous laptop.)
Third, the various modules you can add to Foundry can create a vastly different experience. This customized experience can make troubleshooting issues and learning the system a challenge, because everyone's game is different.
Fourth, there's not really an official marketplace for content. Most things on there to download are available purely as
an oversight by the companies, and if they do eventually get shut down (which has happened a few times already) GMs and their players will be out of luck. It's like the Limewire of VTTs. I'm not even sure the modules are a legal service.
Fifth, on Foundry I'm responsible for hosting or setting up a hosting client, so I'm still paying subscription costs and at the mercy of clogged servers.
Sixth, I'm good at putting in maps on Roll20. Like I can do it in a matter of minutes. I have watched numerous tutorials on Foundry, and it seems much more complex.
Seventh, I don't need features like animated battlemaps, ambient sound effects. I'd prefer just to have officially licensed modules and compendium content.
Eighth, Roll20 has a larger install base. If I'm going to find a game to play, join at a convention, or host new players, it's more likely they'll have access to Roll20. And if not, it's more accessible with many tutorials on YouTube. The basic "how to get started as a player with Foundry" is over 20 minutes.
Ninth, the sunk cost fallacy is kind of true. I've got lots of purchased material on Roll20 that I would need to buy again, custom imported maps and tokens, system knowledge, etc. To learn all that again, repurchase everything, and ask my players to do the same is something I'm not willing to do.

 

[Parmandur]

The reason I'm being vague is what we're seeing from Paizo could go one of two ways: Either they're seeing healthy growth, and are commensurately expanding their products, or they're struggling to maintain their current level of operations and are flailing about to find sources of revenue. I'm being 100% truthful when I say I truly have no idea which it is, because, as I said, two companies can look very similar on the outside and have wildly different financial pictures. I can say that the heady days of 2010-2013, where they legitimately thought that Pathinder might displace D&D as king of the TTRPGs, and were financing projects like Kingmaker and Online, appear to be long behind them, and now their main goal is to find a survivable niche large enough that they don't have to seriously scale back operations.

I think at this point, the Pathfinder card game is actually very big. Which comparing them with WotC, is kind of funny if the TTRPG becomes a side product to their card game.

 

[JmanTheDM]

I think at this point, the Pathfinder card game is actually very big. Which comparing them with WotC, is kind of funny if the TTRPG becomes a side product to their card game.

Kinda like what Munchkin was/is to Gurps?

cheers,

J.

 

[Justice and Rule]

So why I don't use Foundry....
First, I couldn't because I didn't have a computer that would run it. Now that I do, I could convert all my games, make my players learn a new system, etc, but we're already on Roll20, and it's working fine for what we do currently (which isn't PF2).

Can't comment on this because my computer is fairly alright when it comes to hardware.

Second, I can access my game from any computer. If I'm on break at work, I can access my maps, characters, and make quick changes or look up information for my players. I don't have to be at my home computer at my home office. (This was a major problem when I lost everything in Fantasy Grounds when my dog destroyed my previous laptop.)

So you can do this with Foundry, it just requires a little bit of forethought: if you leave home with the game running, you can access it as a GM from another computer. I've never had to upload assets from another computer so I'm not sure if that'd work (It might?), but you could do a lot of bookkeeping, wall-tracing, journal-writing, etc etc...

Third, the various modules you can add to Foundry can create a vastly different experience. This customized experience can make troubleshooting issues and learning the system a challenge, because everyone's game is different.

Ehhh? I mean, you can run the game close to vanilla and get a pretty good experience. All the extra stuff does cool things (Multi-floor tokens, for example), but generally speaking I've not found this to be too problematic with the games I've run (5E, PF2, FFG Star Wars).

Fourth, there's not really an official marketplace for content. Most things on there to download are available purely as an oversight by the companies, and if they do eventually get shut down (which has happened a few times already) GMs and their players will be out of luck. It's like the Limewire of VTTs. I'm not even sure the modules are a legal service.

The modules absolutely are and most rulesets are safe. I believe the only example I can think of getting taken down was Wrath & Glory, but it's up again. SWADE and WFRP 4E are both officially available at the moment.

Fifth, on Foundry I'm responsible for hosting or setting up a hosting client, so I'm still paying subscription costs and at the mercy of clogged servers.

If you have an alright connection it works fine. If you don't, yeah, you might have more problems. For me, I've never needed a server and we use Discord for the video. They do offer hosting services, and honestly if I had to choose I'd pay the $60 upfront and go with Foundry monthly if only because the GUI is so much damn better.

Sixth, I'm good at putting in maps on Roll20. Like I can do it in a matter of minutes. I have watched numerous tutorials on Foundry, and it seems much more complex.

It really is not. I came in from Roll20 and it's amazingly easy, especially with stuff like walls. Having an actual "door" function that you can lock and open with a click instead of the janky way you have to do with Roll20 (Or did it; it's been a while since I've been on there) is just so much easier.

Seventh, I don't need features like animated battlemaps, ambient sound effects. I'd prefer just to have officially licensed modules and compendium content.

This is fair. I can't comment on the PDF Import function because I just don't use it, though I've heard other people swear by it. But Foundry is most rewarding when you are using the tricks to their greatest effect.

Eighth, Roll20 has a larger install base. If I'm going to find a game to play, join at a convention, or host new players, it's more likely they'll have access to Roll20. And if not, it's more accessible with many tutorials on YouTube. The basic "how to get started as a player with Foundry" is over 20 minutes.

The install base is certainly bigger, can't deny that. I do think that the tutorials on Foundry to get started generally aren't too bad, though definitely more focused on if you've never run anything before.

Ninth, the sunk cost fallacy is kind of true. I've got lots of purchased material on Roll20 that I would need to buy again, custom imported maps and tokens, system knowledge, etc. To learn all that again, repurchase everything, and ask my players to do the same is something I'm not willing to do.

Yeah, that sucks. I know there are modules which convert that stuff over, but I can't speak to them personally.

I think at this point, the Pathfinder card game is actually very big. Which comparing them with WotC, is kind of funny if the TTRPG becomes a side product to their card game.

That'd be interesting. I've seen it played at a few wargaming conventions.

 

[Retreater]

@Justice and Rule , I was using a Chromebook and couldn't download the software for Foundry VTT or Fantasy Grounds at the time, so Roll20 was the only game in town when the pandemic started. So it was a trial by fire to learn Roll20, get my players on board, convert/adapt campaigns, etc. Now I have a real laptop and can run other VTTs, but the games I'm currently running (OSR and 5e) work fine on there. If I were to do PF2 again (which is very unlikely) or some other system that seems better supported on Foundry (such as WFRPG or SWADE), then I'll consider it then.
To me, there's just no compelling reason to switch. I don't use dynamic lighting by choice (I think it's detrimental to my groups' experiences). Having unlockable doors doesn't matter when I choose when to reveal what's beyond with fog of war. Having easy line of sight walls likewise doesn't matter to me - though I had no problem putting those in Roll20 before I turned off the dynamic lighting feature. I make my own tokens, which are easy to just drop in to Roll20. I don't think it's as easy in Foundry. My own maps are just dropped into Roll20 also. Foundry you have to put into file folders, adjust settings, tweak pixel ratios, etc., whereas you just manually drag a map onto a grid overlay on Roll20 - I don't see how it can be easier.
The D&D Beyond converter got taken down from Foundry, and it sidelined a friend's game. I personally don't use D&D Beyond, but it was a key feature that got yanked - even when it required a monthly subscription fee to use (completely without the approval of WotC or D&D Beyond). No problems with Beyond20 for that group. Or better yet, get the official content from Roll20 if you're going to be playing 5e.
To me, the added features of Foundry are just unnecessary complications that make the game less like playing at the table and more "video-gamey" (though I hate that term). Line of sight disconnects players from the rest of the action at the table. Sound effects for doors and chirping birds are unnecessary, as it gets in the way of my narration and the player discussion. Besides, we're normally doing voice chat and muting the computer anyway.
The "quality of life" changes I would want from a different VTT are features available on Fantasy Grounds (which is, frankly, a terrible overall product IMO): party sheets that show skills for everybody, the ability to make multiple saving throws or other rolls for groups of enemies, automatic damage calculation, auto initiative rolls, and other things that would cut down on my GM work. The "bells and whistles" don't really concern me.