D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Zardnaar]

Well, I gave names above of some of those who have been leading the conversation. I'm guessing that if you got outside of whatever bubble you seem to be in, then you'd be aware of all these discussions going on in the gaming community. I mean, this topic has been going on for a while now, in every forum I can think of. All I have to say, is just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they don't exist.

I think they're meaning the population at large doesn't care.

Twitter's not real as such it amplifies the loudest extremists.

On another forum where we're allowed discuss a wider variety of topics the overall US population with those views was no more than 15% and likely less than 10%.

Here one can estimate the number for both the extremes combined at less than 10% and I live in one of the most liberal countries in the world. 90%+ is moderate one way or the other or in the middle.

Outside of a handful of countries that number shrinks a lot. Globally USA with all it's problems still is in the top 20.

Out of almost 8 billion people very few swing that way and close to 4 billion live in countries with opposite view to say ENworld official line.

As I said from that PoV perception is reality.

 

[Don Durito]

I don’t see an appeal to authority being made here. I see people who are negatively impacted by D&D’s presentation of race, expressing their issues with it, and being dismissed because “something, something, journalists.”

That's a lie. I haven't dismissed anyone's concerns.

I've just dismissed lazy argumentation.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think they're meaning the population at large doesn't care.

Twitter's not real as such it amplifies the loudest extremists.

I'm not talking about twitter. I'm talking about every forum. Including Twitter, Reddit, forums like this one, blogs, and even appearing on sites like Wired and NPR.

But that's already been pointed out. At this point I have to wonder why people are so adamant about ignoring these very important parts of information to this topic.

I'll also add, if the gaming population at large doesn't care about disparate presentation or pejorative stereotypes in their games, than that is a bad thing--hardly the defense you think it is. It's not something we should just ignore. The latter just reeks of privilege to me. And as someone is largely isn't affected by a lot of these issues, I also have some empathy for those who are, and it's just the right thing to do to listen, hear them, and be better.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

I think they're meaning the population at large doesn't care.

Twitter's not real as such it amplifies the loudest extremists.

On another forum where we're allowed discuss a wider variety of topics the overall US population with those views was no more than 15% and likely less than 10%.

Here one can estimate the number for both the extremes combined at less than 10% and I live in one of the most liberal countries in the world. 90%+ is moderate one way or the other or in the middle.

Outside of a handful of countries that number shrinks a lot. Globally USA with all it's problems still is in the top 20.

Out of almost 8 billion people very few swing that way and close to 4 billion live in countries with opposite view to say ENworld official line.

As I said from that PoV perception is reality.

This is an argumentum ad populum fallacy. Just because the majority of the population is ambivalent about or doesn't know about the existence of an issue doesn't mean the status quo is automatically the correct position. The opinions of impacted parties and subject matter experts are more relevant and should be given higher priority over people who aren't involved in the conversation in the first place, who can be safely ignored.

 

[Eltab]

I find the drow an interesting case.

I would want them to be different than most who dwell under the sun. Very pale makes more sense but obsidian black is simply alien.

no one on earth is the inky black of a moonless night...and def not with orange eyes.

we DO have folks that deal with albinism. Real people.

we likewise don’t have green people or genuinely gray people.

i think people are missing the forest for the trees. And good elves aren’t all white by a long shot. Many are quite brown or copper.

if the artists actually drew the descriptions, this would not even be a debate.

I'm still wondering why a whole society that was cursed by their gods to be black-skinned to echo their evil hearts, was portrayed in the art with IRL natural dark skin instead of obsidian-black or slate-black or nighttime-sky-black.

Don't get me started about wearing a swimsuit in a cave and not being covered in goosebumps (because air temp underground is about 50°F) or how those bodyguards are out of position to effectively guard anybody's body from incoming spell or arrow.

 

[Charlaquin]

Can't be albinism, I've seen that called out already elsewhere as an evil trope or something.

Evil albinos is a trope, though not as prevalent of one as dark=evil. Pale drow also has the benefit of making sense since they live underground. But, yes, you’ve correctly observed that calling just about any group of people inherently evil is problematic. Which is why there shouldn’t be inherently evil humanoids by default.

 

[Zardnaar]

Can't be albinism, I've seen that called out already elsewhere as an evil trope or something.

Ah rgr. I think I would kinda just own it. It's a catch 22 somehow the Drow are both racist and despite being racist probably the most popular D&D race in the game.

Turn a negative into a positive. Yes they have dark skin but they're also intelligent, sexy, popular etc and build on that.

If the Drow were slinging drugs and depicted as gangbangers that's a huge problem.

If they white wash them by painting them grey to me they're making the game less diverse and representative.

Subvert expectations make a new settings depict the Surface Elves as the evil ones who won and gave the Drow good aligned and they fled.

Or put the pale evil elves underground.

Seems to require double think to me. Drow and racist but also popular seems an oxymoron to me ymmv.

The stupid black skin curse is just crappy FR dumb bleepery from 3E that can easily be dumped.

 

[TheSword]

The last three pages of this discussion is the debating equivalent of two opposing groups at a picket line waving placards at each other.

No movement, no attempt to understand the other side. No rapport.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

And when one Asian person says something is problematic and antoher says it is not? How do we decide between them?

That's for us Asians to figure out amongst ourselves. Asians are definitely not a monolith; East Asians, South Asians, Southeast Asians, and West Asians all have different experiences and concerns, as do native Asians vs diaspora Asians in the West. Many of us have our own cultural prejudices to confront and rectify. But the vast majority of Asian peoples have a cultural legacy of suffering from the touch of European and American colonialism. And the last thing we need is cultural outsiders butting in on a discourse that they do not understand or have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

 

[Scribe]

Ah rgr. I think I would kinda just own it. It's a catch 22 somehow the Drow are both racist and despite being racist probably the most popular D&D race in the game.

Turn a negative into a positive. Yes they have dark skin but they're also intelligent, sexy, popular etc and build on that.

If the Drow were slinging drugs and depicted as gangbangers that's a huge problem.

If they white wash them by painting them grey to me they're making the game less diverse and representative.

Subvert expectations make a new settings depict the Surface Elves as the evil ones who won and gave the Drow good aligned and they fled.

Or put the pale evil elves underground.

Seems to require double think to me. Drow and racist but also popular seems an oxymoron to me ymmv.

The stupid black skin curse is just crappy FR dumb bleepery from 3E that can easily be dumped.

It's just as Charlaquin noted. You simply cannot have monolithic race anymore. It's just never going to be seen as socially acceptable.