D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Remathilis]

I’m sorry no it doesn’t act like a person: for the reasons I said before. It superficially resembles a person in appearance. But in many crucial ways it is utterly alien.

Nobody that I’m aware of are claiming that demonic Succubi should be reclassified as anything other than evil.

This argument is being used to try and delegitimise reasonable claims that humanoids shouldn’t be viewed as any alignment.

I think it’s wrong and flawed. We weren’t asking for the baby to be thrown out with the bath water.

I told you the line doesn't stop with orcs and drow. The line stops when EVERY sentient species has equal opportunity to be good, evil, or something in between. Humanoids, monstrosities, giants, fey, elementals, aberrations, dragons, celestials, fiends. If it can think and make moral choices, it has just as equal opportunity to be LG as CE.

 

[Remathilis]

In what ways does it fail to act like a person?

So do you believe a succubus or a balor has the same opportunity to be LG as an elf or an orc?

 

[TheSword]

But that's a judgement call. Beautiful females that embrace their sexuality are all evil temptresses out to corrupt helpless men is very much an issue.

And if the only beautiful seductors were female appearance then there could be a claim of misogyny. But that isn’t the case so where is the harm? Incubi fulfill the same role.

Whenever we are looking at these issues I do think we need to look at where harm lies. It’s my biggest beef with people wanting to remove the entire alignment system.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I told you the line doesn't stop with orcs and drow. The line stops when EVERY sentient species has equal opportunity to be good, evil, or something in between. Humanoids, monstrosities, giants, fey, elementals, aberrations, dragons, celestials, fiends. If it can think and make moral choices, it has just as equal opportunity to be LG as CE.

Well, Erinyes are fallen angels, so I guess we're already there?

I do wonder what sort of changes people honestly think will happen to alignment beyond moving the word "usually" from the paragraph describing alignment to the individual stat blocks.

 

[Catulle]

RrHo'kay. Gonna try and clear up what I said because writing stuff past midnight while I'm trying to get to bed is not the best way to write something clear, concise, and on-point. So I want to tackle a few things more broadly and without just trying to respond to people because I find when you get into a quote-heavy discussion, you lose sight of the argument for the sake of responses and comebacks. Anyways...

The Satanic Panic...

Thanks for being the one to emphasise what the satanic panic actually was. It is utterly infuriating how the narrative has metastasised that it was about the obstacles nerds like us faced to playing some trivial games as opposed to the profound direct trauma inflicted on (mostly) women and the subsequent devastation of families arising from some deeply unethical psychology practice.

 

[Umbran]

But isn't that the divide in viewpoints? In the real world, if it looks, walks, talks, and acts like a person, it is a person, because there's nothing else it could be. In a fantasy world, it can look just like a person but actually be a puddle of evil goo, because cosmological evil is something that exists in the fantasy world.

It looks from here that you are so busy trying to justify a thing with in-world biology and metaphysics that you seem to be missing the fact that, to this day, the exact same logic is used to justify real-world racism and misogyny:

They aren't human. They are sub-human. They aren't people. They don't think like us. They are alien. They aren't intelligent like us. They don't feel like us. They have other drives and instincts that control them...

Now, get your head out of your setting for a moment. Think of this from the real-world perspective.

The exact same logic that is used in the real world, is being used on this fictional symbol - that symbol looks like members of your demographic. The portrayal is like those leveled at your own people in the real world for centuries.

How the heck do you figure that looks? How are you not trying to weasel word things to be able to continue the same sexism or racism under an excuse of fictionalization? Really, guys, the traditional image of the succubus is the "fallen woman" - she's not an alien. For centuries the succubus was the embodiment of a thing men claimed dragged them to Perdition, rather than take responsibility for their own actions! You really think you can overcome that depiction with some in-game-biology handwaving that she's "not really a person"? You think that flies for anyone other than yourself?

 

[Oofta]

And if the only beautiful seductors were female appearance then there could be a claim of misogyny. But that isn’t the case so where is the harm?

Whenever we are looking at these issues I do think we need to look at where harm lies. It’s my biggest beef with people wanting to remove the entire alignment system.

Succubi are very much rooted in misogamy misogyny*. There are non-human creatures that do not have an evil alignment as the default, so why doesn't it go both ways?

I think it should be made clearer that alignment and culture are defaults. I will likely never have a good aligned Balor in my campaign, but they are thinking, intelligent creatures. Just because they're demon spawn doesn't change that.

Much like in the Dresden files Goodman Grey is a male scion of a Naagloshii (a type of demon), it can happen. Form does not dictate function, not even in D&D where I think having generic bad guys is a good thing.

*EDIT: stupid auto-correct.

 

[TheSword]

So do you believe a succubus or a balor has the same opportunity to be LG as an elf or an orc?

Lol. Well that puts paid to my claim that no one is really asking for that.

I frankly don’t care two hoots what the default alignment of a balor, mindflayer, sphinx, hydra, dragon, or any creature that doesn’t draw inspiration from reality. (Which many monstrous humanoids do, from the cultures ascribed to the them).

Its an artistic choice that has zero impact on racism. I don’t believe minorities are feeling uncomfortable because the Mindflayers are defaulting to evil. If you have credible sources suggesting there is a link then please point me in that direction. Again if you want to recreate Fall-From-Grace then that’s an artistic choice.

By expecting it @Remathilis you are undermining the credible elements that seek to revise the game in practical terms that might make a difference.

 

[Wishbone]

Succubi are very much rooted in misogamy. There are non-human creatures that do not have an evil alignment as the default, so why doesn't it go both ways?

I think it should be made clearer that alignment and culture are defaults. I will likely never have a good aligned Balor in my campaign, but they are thinking, intelligent creatures. Just because they're demon spawn doesn't change that.

Much like in the Dresden files Goodman Grey is a male scion of a Naagloshii (a type of demon)[/SPOILER], it can happen. Form does not dictate function, not even in D&D where I think having generic bad guys is a good thing.

Assuming you mean misogyny and not the hatred of marriage?

 

[Oofta]

Assuming you mean misogyny and not the hatred of marriage?

Dang autocorrect. Although in this case...