So, Wandavision?

[Umbran]

Then why cant the same argument be applied to Agatha? She didnt need consequences, she needed a good teacher to show her the right way....

So, the difference is trauma. Some people act badly because of the results of trauma, others because they are horrible people. We have no indication that Agatha had suffered trauma, we have an entire episode outlining Wanda's.

Overall, when Agatha hurts people, she comes out satisfied. Agatha shows no signs of caring or empathy for the pain she causes. She at best pays lip service to it in a "I can remove your pain" way, but lies in the process. Wanda feels remorse when she realizes what she's done.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

So, the difference is trauma. Some people act badly because of the results of trauma, others because they are horrible people. We have no indication that Agatha had suffered trauma, we have an entire episode outlining Wanda's.

Overall, when Agatha hurts people, she comes out satisfied. Agatha shows no signs of caring or empathy for the pain she causes. She at best pays lip service to it in a "I can remove your pain" way, but lies in the process. Wanda feels remorse when she realizes what she's done.

Agatha quite probably suffered plenty of trauma in her four-hundred-plus years, but you are right: in the end it comes down to empathy and remorse. Agatha seems to enjoy causing pain, winning with consequences, and finds people being miserable to be amusing. Wanda does not.

 

[Eric V]

Maybe we should review - they gave us an entire episode of laying out the trauma Wanda's been through. The people of Westview have been having those dreams, and they claim they are torture. Which means... that's what Wanda's living every day. Torture.


Both Wanda and Tony Stark are examples of what you get when trauma isn't treated. Tony shows classic signs of PTSD. Wanda's is uncontrolled grief and loss. If there's a blame here, it is on folks who should know better. Tony and Wanda didn't need "consequences". They needed some really good therapists.

Wow.

One's personal grief does not make one immune from reasonable consequences for one's horrific actions. Here's news: Everyone is grieving something, that includes gangbangers, terrorists, and anyone else we normally like to see face consequences for what they have done. Wanda is not special in this regard.*

Yeah, she should have gotten therapy...so...why didn't she? Same thing with Stark. Their respective support systems should be constantly encouraging it, but ultimately, it's on them to look for help. It just is.

Which makes Monica's line at the end absolute trash. "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them." Am I supposed to believe Wanda is heroic for no longer mind-raping a bunch of innocent people so that she can play pretend with her constructed-out-of-nothing family?

Yeah, ok.

*Well, except for the fact that she's far more destructive. William Stryker is looking at this and saying "See?!"

 

[Umbran]

I liked how Vision basically defeated himself with logic and reason. Really well written. But what will happen with white Vision now? We didn't see him destroy himself did we?

No. I think we can expect that he's free-willed at this point. Heyward and his people may be bright, but they don't outclass Tony Stark and the Mindstone in terms of programming.

 

[Eric V]

Honestly, no, I'm not bothered at all. For a lot of Marvel characters, the accountability is a personal matter rather than external and it's been that way a long time, not just in the MCU. Yes, the locals were pretty angry with her and felt abused - on the other hand, none of them seemed to be particularly out for her blood either. They knew quite intimately about her grief and trauma because they experienced her nightmares. That might not make them particularly understanding given their anger, but they would also know that their experience was temporary while hers are deeper and more lasting wounds.

"At least let us die."

They are afraid of her at the end. If we believe their testimonies, they were severely abused. Thinking that they would all be understanding towards Wanda is more unrealistic than the ultra-civil behaviour on the ferries in The Dark Knight.

 

[Dire Bare]

Wow.

One's personal grief does not make one immune from reasonable consequences for one's horrific actions. Here's news: Everyone is grieving something, that includes gangbangers, terrorists, and anyone else we normally like to see face consequences for what they have done. Wanda is not special in this regard.*

Yeah, she should have gotten therapy...so...why didn't she? Same thing with Stark. Their respective support systems should be constantly encouraging it, but ultimately, it's on them to look for help. It just is.

Which makes Monica's line at the end absolute trash. "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them." Am I supposed to believe Wanda is heroic for no longer mind-raping a bunch of innocent people so that she can play pretend with her constructed-out-of-nothing family?

Yeah, ok.

*Well, except for the fact that she's far more destructive. William Stryker is looking at this and saying "See?!"

Wanda isn't facing any serious consequences for her treatment of the Westview townsfolk . . . . yet. This story isn't over, even if the television series is. Still, something would have been nice within the context of WandaVision, you're not the only one to feel dissatisfaction on this point, I've read it in several online reviews.

But she certainly made a sacrifice. One only possible in comic book stories. Wanda could have continued to power the hex and control all within in order to keep Dream Vision and their kids alive, but she was able to finally see what she was doing and choose to end the hex instead.

As far as justice is concerned . . . . what exactly needs to happen to Wanda? Who has the authority and power to arrest, try, and punish her for her crimes against the people of Westview? What would be the appropriate punishment? What about the significant mitigating circumstances of her apparent disassociative personality and not being fully aware of what she was doing? Could Wanda somehow offer restitution to the people of Westview on her own? What would that look like? Granted, these are all questions to be answered by the writers of WandaVision, or the follow-up in later MCU shows . . . . but this sort of thing is a problem in comic-book stories in general. How do you bring our modern sense of justice to super-powered beings?

Imagine a more mundane parallel . . . a woman hurts others while acting out in extreme grief, trauma, and a dissassociative personality break, but minus the super-powers. What would be appropriate? Jail? Counseling? Some sort of mental institution? We don't handle these sorts of things in the real world all that well, add super-powers to the mix and I can see why the writers punted the issue other than Wanda's walk-of-shame through the townsfolk towards the end.

 

[Davies]

Which makes Monica's line at the end absolute trash. "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them." Am I supposed to believe Wanda is heroic for no longer mind-raping a bunch of innocent people so that she can play pretend with her constructed-out-of-nothing family?

Yes. She chose their freedom over her own happiness. She freely made that choice, as there was no power on Earth that could have compelled her to make it if she chose otherwise.

 

[MarkB]

Which makes Monica's line at the end absolute trash. "They'll never know what you sacrificed for them." Am I supposed to believe Wanda is heroic for no longer mind-raping a bunch of innocent people so that she can play pretend with her constructed-out-of-nothing family?

They may have been constructed out of nothing, but they were pretty clearly independent, sentient beings once she had done so. She was literally killing her husband and children in order to free the townsfolk. Sure, she got herself into that situation in the first place, but that doesn't make it not a sacrifice.

And in her reply to Monica, Wanda acknowledges that, even if they did know, it wouldn't make any difference to them - nor should it.

 

[Eric V]

Yes. She chose their freedom over her own happiness. She freely made that choice, as there was no power on Earth that could have compelled her to make it if she chose otherwise.

This doesn't make her heroic. It doesn't even make her good. It makes her barely decent.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I liked how Vision basically defeated himself with logic and reason. Really well written. But what will happen with white Vision now? We didn't see him destroy himself did we?

I imagine he is just Vision, now.

more unrealistic than the ultra-civil behaviour on the ferries in The Dark Knight.

I have a hard time taking seriously a comment on realism by someone who thinks that what happened on the ferries was unrealistic.

Imagine a more mundane parallel . . . a woman hurts others while acting out in extreme grief, trauma, and a dissassociative personality break, but minus the super-powers. What would be appropriate? Jail? Counseling? Some sort of mental institution?

I mean, I have a close friend who went through exactly that, except it was instigated by a negligently bad psych med prescription, depression, and PTSD. She got arrested, put in a psych ward until she normalized, an actually competent professional figured out what happened, she had a day in court to determine if she was legally responsible for her actions, and the determination was that she wasn't.

Now, in order for that to happen for Wanda, there would have to be a state-sanctioned expert in chaos magic and sorcery. Otherwise, any "consequences" she faces will be an unjust trial at best, and violent retribution at worst. There is no real way for her to face genuine justice, outside of her putting in the work herself to make amends, or someone like Strange coming to put her down if she goes the other way.