WotC James Wyatt is on the Dungeons & Dragons Team Again

[Scribe]

So you are complaining about the 5e version and not the 4e version?

Please, find me 4e citations and not 5e ones.

Maybe I am? 5e release lore + 4e art style? Regardless, I wont be able to find it now, so we can eagerly await your 'gotcha' moment.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

As for tieflings, is it pronounced "tieflings", or "tieflings"?

It's pronounced, "Interminable debate."

 

[cavalier973]

Ah....

Is the "e" silent, then, at the end of "debate"?

 

[Aldarc]

Maybe I am? 5e release lore + 4e art style? Regardless, I wont be able to find it now, so we can eagerly await your 'gotcha' moment.

That's fine. Take your time. I don't think that any "gotcha" I could produce would assuage all of your grievances, but it should at least provide a bit more nuance into your critiques while debunking some myths.

 

[tetrasodium]

I could, but you are the one with an axe to grind against the 4e "Asmodeus Monolith" tieflings, so I assumed that you knew.

No he's right. Subbing out Asmodeus for the mtof baalzebul, disapater, Fierna, Glasya, Mammon, Mephistopheles, & Zariel doesn't help much because those are all specific deity level beings with a boatload of setting specific lore tied to a specific setting specific place & set of baselines. If it's not a big deal there should be no issue possibly conceivable issue if they were changed officially to something like

Spoiler: this

If those planescape 4e metaplot/fr/greyhawk specific links aren't a problem, in core then there won't be a problem trying to run temple of elemental evil, PotA, or similar & having a well meaning tiefling pc tied to a manifest zone constantly pointing out how manifest zones are a natural thing in the "default setting" & it won't be a problem when they start questioning how the planar cosmology they are tied to is different from the great wheel cosmology a gm is trying to convey. The old "human and "something else"" fit fine into any setting even if that "something else" was always something specific

 

[Scribe]

That's fine. Take your time. I don't think that any "gotcha" I could produce would assuage all of your grievances, but it should at least provide a bit more nuance into your critiques while debunking some myths.

I found a copy of 4e PHB, and at a glance, you are correct, its not the Asmodeous Monolith, its this this other one.

Hundreds of years ago, the leaders of the human empire of Bael Turath made pacts with devils to solidify their hold over its enormous territory. Those humans became the first tieflings, and they governed their empire in the name of their infernal masters. In time, Bael Turath came into conflict with Arkhosia, the ancient empire of the dragonborn, and decades of warfare left both empires in ruins. Bael Turath’s grand capital was thrown down in ruin.

And I couldnt make it more than a few pages in without being slammed with the art style now associated with them, so that part at least, I was correct on.

So rest easy Aldarc, it is not Asmodeous that was the original issue, it was Bael Turath and an art style that locked in Hellboy/Hellgirl which 4e generated.

I was wrong, and my visceral reaction is due to the art and appearance, while the history overrides the variety and diversity that we had pre-4e.

Again though, I was wrong. Just to be clear.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

The most notable thing about James Wyatt that I remember is that he was the only Acquisitions, Inc. DM besides Chris Perkins (season 1), until Chris retired from the position.

As for tieflings, is it pronounced "tieflings", or "tieflings"?

TEEF-LINGS, or just go with German where it would be "Teufel-Ling" though spelled Teufelling because I think German grammar rules say you contract words together.

 

[darjr]

The most notable thing about James Wyatt that I remember is that he was the only Acquisitions, Inc. DM besides Chris Perkins (season 1), until Chris retired from the position.

yea! I’m going to have to go back and relisten.

I wonder if he ran 4e more like the ur D&D, that 5e is closer too imho, like Chris Perkins did.

 

[Aldarc]

And I couldnt make it more than a few pages in without being slammed with the art style now associated with them, so that part at least, I was correct on.

So rest easy Aldarc, it is not Asmodeous that was the original issue, it was Bael Turath and an art style that locked in Hellboy/Hellgirl which 4e generated.

I was wrong, and my visceral reaction is due to the art and appearance, while the history overrides the variety and diversity that we had pre-4e.

I will grant you that 4e shaped the prevailing current art style for tieflings* - which I think was likely for purposes of quick and easy tiefling identification in the various pages - but saying that Bael Turath is the issue still seems like you are trying to find additional things to blame 4e for rather than confront how some of your grievances are with changes that 5e itself made to the lore.

* I personally disliked a lot of the pre-4e art style for the tieflings. I found them underwhelming in 2e, and I thought they looked hideous and unappealing in the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. It was not until 4e that their art style and their background really "clicked" for me.

 

[Scribe]

I will grant you that 4e shaped the prevailing current art style for tieflings* - which I think was likely for purposes of quick and easy tiefling identification in the various pages - but saying that Bael Turath is the issue still seems like you are trying to find additional things to blame 4e for rather than confront how some of your grievances are with changes that 5e itself made to the lore.

* I personally disliked a lot of the pre-4e art style for the tieflings. I found them underwhelming in 2e, and I thought they looked hideous and unappealing in the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. It was not until 4e that their art style and their background really "clicked" for me.

I will ABSOLUTELY admit that with the 5e PHB stating Asmodeous, and the 4e common historical basis for Tiefling, I was conflating the issues.

To be clear (on more than just my being wrong.)

1. I hate the 5e Admodeous monolith.
2. I hate the 4e Bael Turath monolith (though if that continued through the rest of the books in 4e, I have no idea, I was turned off immediately by the style of 4e).
3. I absolutely hate the appearance promoted in the 4e PHB, and that the diversity was removed.
4. (one more time for good measure) I was wrong on saying 4e set the Admodeous monolith.