D&D 5E What Single Thing Would You Eliminate

[Reynard]

I fall into the camp of preferring milestone leveling because for me and my players... we don't see Experience Points as a reward in and of itself. XP isn't a prize. For us... our reward for adventuring is the narrative we've been a part of, and the character personalities and relationships we have built up and grown with.

The real XP was the friends you made along the way!

 

[TwoSix]

True. Let's do that with combat next.

Hey, if you don't want to engage with the idea, that's cool. I'm not being snarky, I'm really struggling to understand how XP incentivizes play. If it works in your game, maybe you understand the play priorities that drive it.

 

[Manbearcat]

These are not "actions available to all PCs." You can't look through the list of feats mid-combat and decide "I want to use this feat now." Your options are limited by your chargen selections--exactly the same as class features. Whether the chargen selection is called a "class" or a "feat" or a "paragon path" is beside the point.


Ah, true, I had forgotten those. So, basically, "minor actions" were split into "bonus actions" and "object interactions" in 5E.

They are, in fact, "actions available to all PCs." Its just that, as you clarified here, that they are at the build-stage rather than "at will for all PCs."

That stipulation wasn't clear to me in your initial post. When I read through your post that drew my response, you were citing Class and build-related Bonus Actions, so I don't know how one could infer you meant "suite of non-build Bonus Actions):

And as for "every turn," 5E is loaded with every-turn bonus actions. All rogues above 2nd level and all monks above 1st get a bonus action every turn. So does every dual wielder, and everyone packing Polearm Mastery or Crossbow Expert, and every Eldritch Knight from 7th level onward, and probably a whole lot more I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

On top of that are all the bonus actions that are not usable literally every turn, but have multiple uses that can be quickly refreshed, like Bardic Inspiration and Quicken Spell, and low-level bonus action spells.

However, yup, with that stipulation, what you are saying is true.

The other thing that interfaces with @Raith5 's statement is the more intricate action economy of 4e (feature or bug, depending on who you are). No Action, Free Action, your 2nd Free Action moving up the chain to requiring a Minor Action, Weapon Swap requiring Minor Action. I think Raith5 's point (or at least the point I would be making) is that by level 6, a table of 3 players will likely feature PCs that interact with this portion of the action economy (No > Free > Minor) in this way at an extremely high rate.

 

[ART!]

When I run games I simply explain that I don't use XP and we discuss as a group how quickly everyone wants to level up. For my current group it's typically every 2-3 sessions because we only meet monthly.

As far as motivations, if I can't put interesting options in front of the group or set up scenarios where they're risking their lives for something their PCs care about I would feel like I'm not doing my job as a DM.

This is pretty much how we approach it, too, although I don't think we've ever discussed how frequently we'd level up - I guess we just trust the DM to be sensible. We game weekly, so it wind up being every 1.5-3 months, depending on how momentous things have been.

I just think that if the fate of the PCs is in the players' hands, that includes risks versus rewards in the form of XP.

The risks for us are not achieving our characters' goals, and the rewards are achieving them.

I fall into the camp of preferring milestone leveling because for me and my players... we don't see Experience Points as a reward in and of itself. XP isn't a prize. For us... our reward for adventuring is the narrative we've been a part of, and the character personalities and relationships we have built up and grown with. The story is the reward, not the mechanics. And leveling up is merely the game mechanic that gives us new abilities that allow us to interact with the story going forward in new and different ways. So the point of milestones for us is that we've concluded a part of the story where we've interacted with it in a certain manner with certain game mechanics to push that interaction along... and now can be the time for us to get new mechanics that will allow us to interact with this next part of the story slightly differently.

Gaining pass without trace changes the story of our adventures, because now our party is more likely to be able to sneak into places successfully, where it might not have been possible before. How we now interact with the narrative is new and different, because we have gained an ability that changes it. And that new story is what me and my players find rewarding, not just gaining XP or gaining gold, or gaining magic items. Those things are nice, sure... but again, they are only there to let us spend them on new ways to interact with the story.

And in case someone was wondering... yes, we absolutely could play the game with no leveling whatsoever, all characters remaining at 1st level for the entire campaign. We don't really need to have all those new mechanics that allow us to change the narrative... we could just change the story ourselves. But because a significant part of the game of D&D is the combat board game... having new ways to play that part of D&D is important., because D&D combat is... fine... but isn't particularly compelling on its own. There are plenty of other board games I find better and more fun as games... and it's only by adding or changing the game mechanics and the story and narrative surrounding the D&D combat that keeps us truly engaged with it.

1000% this.

 

[Democratus]

Hey, if you don't want to engage with the idea, that's cool. I'm not being snarky, I'm really struggling to understand how XP incentivizes play. If it works in your game, maybe you understand the play priorities that drive it.

The systems you use to reward players in a game greatly influence the way they will play a game.

• If you give XP primarily for treasure (as in B/X), you will often see players using their wits to extract treasure with a minimum of fuss and fighting

• If you give XP primarily for killing monsters (as in 3.5+) you will often see players playing the game as a series of fights and treating monsters/NPCs as purely combat opportunites.

• If you give XP primarily for accomplishing goals and reaching story milestones, you will often see players working to advance the narrative and check off all the side-quests.

Choose the game behaviour you want - and then create a reward stystem that encourages it.

 

[Reynard]

The systems you use to reward players in a game greatly influence the way they will play a game.

• If you give XP primarily for treasure (as in B/X), you will often see players using their wits to extract treasure with a minimum of fuss and fighting

• If you give XP primarily for killing monsters (as in 3.5+) you will often see players playing the game as a series of fights and treating monsters/NPCs as purely combat opportunites.

• If you give XP primarily for accomplishing goals and reaching story milestones, you will often see players working to advance the narrative and check off all the side-quests.

Choose the game behaviour you want - and then create a reward stystem that encourages it.

I think @TwoSix is suggesting they don't know that ANY XP reward system can incentive play (correct me if I am wrong).

Sometime the play is the thing, as it were, and finding out what happens next is the primary driver. But I have played with many people for whom XP is the primary driver (often alongside or only slightly ahead of material rewards like magic items). Progression is baked into the system, and has been since the very inception of the game. How that progression is established has changed, of course.

Before finishing beating the dead horse, I just want to reiterate: I am against arbitrary GM XP rewards or milestone leveling because I think doing so has a negative effect on player agency. It usually goes hand in hand with the GM telling the players what they are doing next, which is generally not the kind of gaming I prefer (although, as I said, it can be fun sometimes to go on the rollercoaster e.g. Descent into Avernus).

 

[Reynard]

Hey, if you don't want to engage with the idea, that's cool. I'm not being snarky, I'm really struggling to understand how XP incentivizes play. If it works in your game, maybe you understand the play priorities that drive it.

My apologies for being flip. I interpreted you answer as you not wanting to engage with the idea.

To explain: I think when how XP is rewarded is systematized and transparent, the players can engage with that system in a way they choose. If they know that greater risks lead to greater rewards, they can make informed decisions about how deep to delve. And informed decision making -- aka agency -- is perhaps the mot important part of playing RPGs. This assumes a few things, including that the players do in fact have a lot of choices in what they get to do, and those choices are varied in degrees of risk and reward, and the players have some mechanism to figure out which choices align with which risk and reward levels. It is most appropriate for mega-dungeon exploration and sandbox gaming, less so for "adventure paths" and "theme park" style adventuring.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I think @TwoSix is suggesting they don't know that ANY XP reward system can incentive play (correct me if I am wrong).

Sometime the play is the thing, as it were, and finding out what happens next is the primary driver. But I have played with many people for whom XP is the primary driver (often alongside or only slightly ahead of material rewards like magic items). Progression is baked into the system, and has been since the very inception of the game. How that progression is established has changed, of course.

Before finishing beating the dead horse, I just want to reiterate: I am against arbitrary GM XP rewards or milestone leveling because I think doing so has a negative effect on player agency. It usually goes hand in hand with the GM telling the players what they are doing next, which is generally not the kind of gaming I prefer (although, as I said, it can be fun sometimes to go on the rollercoaster e.g. Descent into Avernus).

XP is redundant if the players are already doing stuff because it's fun. If players do stuff because playing the game is fun, the added reward of points for doing so adds very little, and requires a lot of bookkeeping.

This is especially true if the dm doesn't want to encourage any particular kind of play: I want my players to engage with the setting, but I don't care how. They can go for treasure or glory or power or justice or whatever they like. They can do this by fighting or talking or stealing or whatever clever plan they want. My players know that if they don't engage with the setting, no game happens, so I don't feel any need to make them act.

Therefore, for my style of play, any xp system would need to perfectly balance every possible approach - which in a ttrpg means I need good, balanced, non-arbitrary numbers for stuff I haven't thought of. How much xp should I give for a course action I can't imagine yet? It's much easier for me to simply give them a level once they hit some downtime, after they've had enough time to use all the new toys they got at the last level-up.

Now - that's still only one context. In open table games, I honestly can't think of an alternative to xp (in general) that could work. Do whatever you want with the numbers, you need a system to calculate when pcs advance.

 

[Charlaquin]

XP is redundant if the players are already doing stuff because it's fun. If players do stuff because playing the game is fun, the added reward of points for doing so adds very little, and requires a lot of bookkeeping.

This feels intuitively true, but our brains do all sorts of stuff without our conscious awareness. You may not notice what the reward of experience adds to the game, but your brain certainly does. Never underestimate how much human brains love watching progress bars fill up.

This is especially true if the dm doesn't want to encourage any particular kind of play: I want my players to engage with the setting, but I don't care how. They can go for treasure or glory or power or justice or whatever they like. They can do this by fighting or talking or stealing or whatever clever plan they want. My players know that if they don't engage with the setting, no game happens, so I don't feel any need to make them act.

Therefore, for my style of play, any xp system would need to perfectly balance every possible approach - which in a ttrpg means I need good, balanced, non-arbitrary numbers for stuff I haven't thought of. How much xp should I give for a course action I can't imagine yet? It's much easier for me to simply give them a level once they hit some downtime, after they've had enough time to use all the new toys they got at the last level-up.

This sounds all well and good, but a game without goals and rewards strains the definition of the word game. Moreover, you may think that by eschewing XP, you’re not rewarding any particular kind of engagement, but really what you’re doing is not intentionally rewarding any particular kind of engagement, meaning the only play rewards are unknown and unintentional. But they’re there. You and your players may not notice, but your brains will.

Now - that's still only one context. In open table games, I honestly can't think of an alternative to xp (in general) that could work. Do whatever you want with the numbers, you need a system to calculate when pcs advance.

Sure, though that’s a separate concern.

 

[TheSword]

But why make it arbitrary when there is a system that exists that everyone can understand and use in their decision making process?

I should state that my objections are mostly based on assuming a very open game with a lot of options and player driven action. I have successfully used milestone leveling in more linear campaigns (Avernus being the most recent example) and in that case everyone was along for the ride. But in my current Rime campaign, the milestone leveling really bugs me.

Anyway, I appreciate that everyone plays differently, I just think that if the fate of the PCs is in the players' hands, that includes risks versus rewards in the form of XP.

Most players don’t know how much XP reward they’re going to get from visiting a precise location. They don’t know exactly what’s there, what it’s CR is and what else they might face. So I don’t believe XP does factor into PC decision making. As CR is arbitrary according to the DMs whim, so is XP.