D&D 5E The -10 Myth: How a Poorly-Worded Gygaxian Rule Became the Modern Death Save

[Snarf Zagyg]

I don't know mate .

1. Not your mate.
2. Just looked at your posting history. Your first three posts got you thread-banned for being obnoxious. Your next action was liking a controversial post in a locked thread. After that, you necro‘d the Mentzer thread. Then this.
3. Seems to be a pattern. Not playing.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I've got a sneaking hunch there was something in Dragon at some point that made death at -10 an official option long before 2e came out.

I checked several times- not saying it can’t be there, but saying I can’t find it.

 

[Mannahnin]

I checked several times- not saying it can’t be there, but saying I can’t find it.

I expect that a lot of folks unsatisfied with death at zero simplified Gygax's original death's door rule, and then 2E just codified the simplification.

And that the prevalence of usage for this optional rule is what led to WotC making it core in 3E (though they also removed the aftereffects/debilitation, which I seem to recall my groups also ignored in 2E).

 

[jayoungr]

Yeah...Elves didn't have souls they had spirits...

What's the distinction?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I expect that a lot of folks unsatisfied with death at zero simplified Gygax's original death's door rule, and then 2E just codified the simplification.

And that the prevalence of usage for this optional rule is what led to WotC making it core in 3E (though they also removed the aftereffects/debilitation, which I seem to recall my groups also ignored in 2E).

Exactly. I thought that's what my OP said?

Maybe, like Gygax, I need to simplify.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

What's the distinction?

Spirits mean you can't be raised or resurrected.

In 1e, Elves (having spirits) could not be brought back from the dead through raise dead or resurrection. ONLY reincarnation. Because reasons (mostly, because Elves are terrible, evil critters that should be consigned to the afterlife).

That said, there was a loophole. The Rod of Resurrection did work on Elves. Because ... um .... consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds and comprehensible rule systems.

 

[Wolfram stout]

Spirits mean you can't be raised or resurrected.

In 1e, Elves (having spirits) could not be brought back from the dead through raise dead or resurrection. ONLY reincarnation. Because reasons (mostly, because Elves are terrible, evil critters that should be consigned to the afterlife).

That said, there was a loophole. The Rod of Resurrection did work on Elves. Because ... um .... consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds and comprehensible rule systems.

And, for those not familiar, Reincarnation had a random table you had to roll on. Your reincarnated elf could come back as an elf, or a halfing, or a wolf. I think their might have been some evil humanoids on the table as well.

Sorry for the side track but, this aspect brought back a lot of fun memories.

 

[Stattick]

In 2e, we had someone, a half-elf I think, who died. Reincarnated into a Wemic. DM let him continue playing as a Wemic. Was pretty funny.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And, for those not familiar, Reincarnation had a random table you had to roll on. Your reincarnated elf could come back as an elf, or a halfing, or a wolf. I think their might have been some evil humanoids on the table as well.

Sorry for the side track but, this aspect brought back a lot of fun memories.

Even better, there were TWO different reincarnation tables; in fact, one of my favorite bizarre touches was that the Druid table had a section that required you to roll on the (much weirder) MU table. There's nothing more pure Gygaxian than CROSS-REFERENCED tables.

"Ima hopin' to get CENTAUR, like my favorite back-of-the-Rogues-Gallery NPC!"
"Oh, looks like the MU table for you."
".... oh ..... no ...."
"OGRE MAGE!"

 

[jgsugden]

Something else to consider here: 0 was more common back then.

A hill giant did 2d8 damage in AD&D. Average 9, but with spreads that involved very small numbers. In 5E they do 3d8+5 (nearly double, with a much higher minimum damage - and 3d10 + 5 at range).

Due to the wider range, the higher minimum damage, the crit rules, etc... you're going to see the 5E PC getting taken to exactly 0 less often by a significant margin. I did a quick little test using excel and tracked, starting at random hp totals between 2 and 50, how often a PC would end up going to 0 and how often they would go to less than zero (versus a hill giant). I did this for AD&D, and then again for 5E.

In AD&D, the PC went to zero about 10.6% of the time. That is about one out of every 9.5 opportunities. They went to less than 0 the other 89.4% of the time in the testing.

In 5E, the PC went to zero about 6.25% of the time. That is about 1 in 16 times. They went to less than 0 about 93.75% of the time.

It makes me wonder if 5E would be a bit better if we extended the 'at zero' treatment down to -1 or -2.