D&D 5E A death save house rule proposal

[ezo]

I'm not sure if I agree with a successful save leaving you at 0 and "stable." I think if you succeed you should regain 1 HP, but be forced to stay prone until the beginning (or end) of your next turn.

Actually, this is a good point but we have to think about this...

Current Version:
Success. You keep death at bay for the moment. You do not make additional Death Saving Throws unless you take further damage, even if you start your turn with 0 Hit Points.

Revised Version:
Success. You keep death at bay for the moment. You regain 1 Hit Point.

Since the current version makes it so you don't have to continue to make DST unless you take further damage, but if you are at 1 HP (revised version) and take any damage, you are in fact at 0 Hit Points again anyway...

Thinking about this:

1. You get hit, go to 0 HP.
2. You are Prone. Nothing else happens until...(assuming you don't get healed)
3. You start your turn at 0 HP and must make a DST.
3A. (current) You succeed at are at 0 HP, no longer making DST OR
3B. (revised) You succeed and are at 1 HP and don't have to make DST.
... you stand up, do whatever...
4. You get hit and take damage. Assuming you are still at 0 or 1 HP (depending on current or revised), either way you will be at 0 HP again.
4A. (current) Since you were already AT 0 HP, you don't fall Prone.
4B. (revised) Since you were at 1 HP and dropped to 0 HP (again), you are Prone.
5. Either way, you are starting at 0 HP and make the DST.
and so on.

With the current wording, since you would regain 1 HP, if you take damage again, you "drop to 0 HP" again, and so fall Prone again. This really seems more "whack-a-mole" since you are up, then prone, then up (if you stand), then prone, etc.

So, @Charlaquin the question becomes this: while at 0 HP, do you want the creature to be Prone anytime they take damage?

Or does it make more sense that you don't automatically become prone whenever you get hit?

I don't think you want another roll for that, so what are your thoughts?

 

[Shardstone]

Actually, this is a good point but we have to think about this...

Current Version:
Success. You keep death at bay for the moment. You do not make additional Death Saving Throws unless you take further damage, even if you start your turn with 0 Hit Points.

Revised Version:
Success. You keep death at bay for the moment. You regain 1 Hit Point.

Since the current version makes it so you don't have to continue to make DST unless you take further damage, but if you are at 1 HP (revised version) and take any damage, you are in fact at 0 Hit Points again anyway...

Thinking about this:

1. You get hit, go to 0 HP.
2. You are Prone. Nothing else happens until...(assuming you don't get healed)
3. You start your turn at 0 HP and must make a DST.
3A. (current) You succeed at are at 0 HP, no longer making DST OR
3B. (revised) You succeed and are at 1 HP and don't have to make DST.
... you stand up, do whatever...
4. You get hit and take damage. Assuming you are still at 0 or 1 HP (depending on current or revised), either way you will be at 0 HP again.
4A. (current) Since you were already AT 0 HP, you don't fall Prone.
4B. (revised) Since you were at 1 HP and dropped to 0 HP (again), you are Prone.
5. Either way, you are starting at 0 HP and make the DST.
and so on.

With the current wording, since you would regain 1 HP, if you take damage again, you "drop to 0 HP" again, and so fall Prone again. This really seems more "whack-a-mole" since you are up, then prone, then up (if you stand), then prone, etc.

So, @Charlaquin the question becomes this: while at 0 HP, do you want the creature to be Prone anytime they take damage?

Or does it make more sense that you don't automatically become prone whenever you get hit?

I don't think you want another roll for that, so what are your thoughts?

If you make it Prone at the end of your next turn, that's at least two turns Prone which IMO feels less absurd then falling Prone, getting up, etc. over and over again.

 

[dave2008]

I must admit, skimming through this thread makes me happy that we use death at 0!

 

[Charlaquin]

Actually, this is a good point but we have to think about this...

Current Version:
Success. You keep death at bay for the moment. You do not make additional Death Saving Throws unless you take further damage, even if you start your turn with 0 Hit Points.

Revised Version:
Success. You keep death at bay for the moment. You regain 1 Hit Point.

Since the current version makes it so you don't have to continue to make DST unless you take further damage, but if you are at 1 HP (revised version) and take any damage, you are in fact at 0 Hit Points again anyway...

Thinking about this:

1. You get hit, go to 0 HP.
2. You are Prone. Nothing else happens until...(assuming you don't get healed)
3. You start your turn at 0 HP and must make a DST.
3A. (current) You succeed at are at 0 HP, no longer making DST OR
3B. (revised) You succeed and are at 1 HP and don't have to make DST.
... you stand up, do whatever...
4. You get hit and take damage. Assuming you are still at 0 or 1 HP (depending on current or revised), either way you will be at 0 HP again.
4A. (current) Since you were already AT 0 HP, you don't fall Prone.
4B. (revised) Since you were at 1 HP and dropped to 0 HP (again), you are Prone.
5. Either way, you are starting at 0 HP and make the DST.
and so on.

With the current wording, since you would regain 1 HP, if you take damage again, you "drop to 0 HP" again, and so fall Prone again. This really seems more "whack-a-mole" since you are up, then prone, then up (if you stand), then prone, etc.

So, @Charlaquin the question becomes this: while at 0 HP, do you want the creature to be Prone anytime they take damage?

Or does it make more sense that you don't automatically become prone whenever you get hit?

I don't think you want another roll for that, so what are your thoughts?

That’s a great question. In the abstract, I feel like I wouldn’t want that constant up and down, but I think I’d need to see it in actual play to get a sense of how much it would realistically come up.

EDIT: Oh, actually now I think about it, I definitely prefer just staying stable at 0 on a success over regaining HP, because the latter would also get you back up from unconscious, which is something I specifically wanted to avoid.

 

[ezo]

Somthing I didn't realize until examining the conditions is neither Stunned nor Incapacitated (part of Stunned) reduces speed to 0.

So, regardless of success or failure, the first turn after dropping to 0 HP you can always stand up. I am not fond of that.

Now, @Shardstone makes a good point, but I think you can't do Prone until the end of your next turn (when you drop to 0 HP) because then there is no chance to get up the first turn...

I think we could add your Speed is 0 to the failure result to this:

Failure. Your Speed is 0 and have the Stunned Condition until the end of your next turn.

This way, with success, you are stable and can get up. With failure you're stunned and remain prone since your Speed is 0 and you cannot stand up.

Of course, this means there is no option where you can get up, but remain Stunned...

Thoughts???

 

[Charlaquin]

I still suspect that Incapacitated not reducing your speed to 0 any more in the 2024 rules was an oversight. But yeah, if there’s no sign of that getting errata’d, we should probably have that first failure reduce speed to 0 as well.

 

[ezo]

I still suspect that Incapacitated not reducing your speed to 0 any more in the 2024 rules was an oversight. But yeah, if there’s no sign of that getting errata’d, we should probably have that first failure reduce speed to 0 as well.

Incapacitated never reduced your speed to 0 in 2014, either, it has always just been you can't take actions or reactions.

So, no oversight in the new book at all. I agree, it SHOULD include speed 0 in both, but doesn't.

Anyway, so you don't want an option where you are Stunned but can move?? If not, then the new Failure with Speed 0 finishes things off I think.

 

[abirdcall]

I really like this. Without playing with it I suggest the following:

Drop to 0: You lose Concentration and gain the Prone condition which you may not end by standing up until you have any HP. You may not take reactions and you may only take an action or bonus action, not both. You may also only attack once with the attack action. These effects end if you have any HP at the end of your turn.

Fail save or damaged: Stunned. If you have any HP at the end of your turn, this condition ends.

Fail save or damaged: Paralyzed. If you have any HP at the end of your turn this condition ends and you gain the Stunned condition until the end of your next turn.

Fail save or damaged: Death.

Roll 20 on saving throw: Gain 1HP and all ongoing effects of dying end immediately.

This avoids the unconscious condition which I like as I want the player to still witness the combat and be able to say things. Also, there is a dire consequence to being so near death as they now lose 2 turns.

I think also removing the critical hit does 2 failed saves can be removed as the failed saves have big consequences.

What do you think @Charlaquin ?

 

[Charlaquin]

Incapacitated never reduced your speed to 0 in 2014, either, it has always just been you can't take actions or reactions.

So, no oversight in the new book at all. I agree, it SHOULD include speed 0 in both, but doesn't.

Right, sorry, it was Stunned that said you couldn’t move, not Incapacitated. Either way, that part got left out of the 2024 version, and I am skeptical that it was an intended change.

Anyway, so you don't want an option where you are Stunned but can move?? If not, then the new Failure with Speed 0 finishes things off I think.

Really, I think being unable to move should be part of the effect of Stunned, as it was in 2014. But this achieves the same goal, so I’m happy with it!

 

[Charlaquin]

I really like this. Without playing with it I suggest the following:

Drop to 0: You lose Concentration and gain the Prone condition which you may not end by standing up until you have any HP. You may not take reactions and you may only take an action or bonus action, not both. You may also only attack once with the attack action. These effects end if you have any HP at the end of your turn.

There’s a bit too much going on here for my tastes. I like the simplicity of just giving a condition and not setting a lot of additional restrictions on the character’s activity that isn’t tied to a condition.

Fail save or damaged: Stunned. If you have any HP at the end of your turn, this condition ends.

So no auto-expiration on Stunned, you have to regain HP? That’s pretty harsh.

Fail save or damaged: Paralyzed. If you have any HP at the end of your turn this condition ends and you gain the Stunned condition until the end of your next turn.

I prefer Unconscious over Paralyzed, but they are very similar, so it’s a reasonable change if you prefer the downed PC to be aware and able to talk.

Roll 20 on saving throw: Gain 1HP and all ongoing effects of dying end immediately.

Only on a natural 20, so a success just keeps you in your current condition for another turn? Worth considering, but it does make it extremely difficult to recover if you don’t have magical healing available.

I think also removing the critical hit does 2 failed saves can be removed as the failed saves have big consequences.

I agree, and in fact I prefer a hit actually just forces another save instead of an automatic save failure. I’d either have the DC of the save be half the damage like with Concentration, or just disadvantage on the save if the hit is a critical.