D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Chaosmancer]

I actually did in my campaign that goblins were more magical. On par with elves. And there was a process where goblins took another goblin normally against his will and performed a ritual where they threw the goblin in the fire. When they came out they were hobgoblins. Bigger and stronger and no spellcasting ability. They were also incapable of attacking and harming a goblin as a process of this ritual.

Huh, that's an interesting take.

 

[Sithlord]

Huh, that's an interesting take.

That is an example of the fun I like to have in a game. The creative process of setting and so forth. I love homebrew and I will happily play in anyone’s homebrew game.

 

[Bohandas]

I apologize if my statement was taken that way, it is not what I meant, nor was there any attempt to imply anything along those lines. In many wars some soldiers believe in the cause, some are ignorant of all the implications of the cause, some are conscripts that were drafted with little choice.

My grandfather was a conscript in the Italian army. He didn't believe in what Mussolini was doing but he didn't have a choice.

 

[Don Durito]

Humans, orcs, elves, halflings, goblins, whatever--they are not literally made out of evil. Whether you say they evolved from something else, were created or uplifted by the gods, or something else, they're still flesh-and-blood creatures. Some of them may be evil, yes, but those will be individuals, not entire species.

There's nothing stopping you from making Orcs evil in the way that fiends are evil though. God knows if you want to use them you have to do something with them to make them less boring.

 

[Faolyn]

There's nothing stopping you from making Orcs evil in the way that fiends are evil though.

Of course you can. But then they stop being people and just end up as things to kill. And in that case, you might as well just use zombies or robots or whatever.

God knows if you want to use them you have to do something with them to make them less boring.

I'm not sure why turning them into things to kill makes them less boring then having them as an actual people with their own culture. Sure, it takes a bit of effort to figure out what their culture is like, but I find it's worth it.

 

[Don Durito]

Of course you can. But then they stop being people and just end up as things to kill. And in that case, you might as well just use zombies or robots or whatever.


I'm not sure why turning them into things to kill makes them less boring then having them as an actual people with their own culture. Sure, it takes a bit of effort to figure out what their culture is like, but I find it's worth it.

But if you make them a people with their own culture you might as well just use humans.

See there's no good reason to use Orcs at all.

(Although I think the idea that evil creatures are only things to kill lacks imagination. D&D tends toward the anodyne, but set up right, they can still be objects of horror).

 

[Coroc]

To nitpick - because hey, it's what we do:

Origin
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So Orcney Island is actually (sea) monster island?

 

[Faolyn]

But if you make them a people with their own culture you might as well just use humans.

See there's no good reason to use Orcs at all.

That makes zero sense. Because they have culture, they can't be nonhuman? Do your games have humans as the only PC option? Do you only have one-dimensional planet-of-hat elves and dwarfs?

(Although I think the idea that evil creatures are only things to kill lacks imagination. D&D tends toward the anodyne, but set up right, they can still be objects of horror).

Turning them into an "object of horror" just makes them things to kill, but with another step in the way.

Just in case you weren't aware, there's nothing wrong with having orcs as bad guys. What's wrong is making them an Always Evil race.

 

[Sithlord]

That makes zero sense. Because they have culture, they can't be nonhuman? Do your games have humans as the only PC option? Do you only have one-dimensional planet-of-hat elves and dwarfs?


Turning them into an "object of horror" just makes them things to kill, but with another step in the way.

Just in case you weren't aware, there's nothing wrong with having orcs as bad guys. What's wrong is making them an Always Evil race.

Nothing wrong with it. Just depends on what type of campaign you are running. They could very well be an allegory like the stories in most fairy tails and myths. Especially if they are not meant to mean ideas like species in science and more of archetypal story representations for ideas. And on the opposite end Even the 1E greyhawk boxed set had a good orc living in greyhawk.

 

[Don Durito]

That makes zero sense. Because they have culture, they can't be nonhuman? Do your games have humans as the only PC option? Do you only have one-dimensional planet-of-hat elves and dwarfs?

They can be. There's just no reason to be. Orcs as just another race is so old hat to me now. I was doing it in the 90s. I phased them out because they were adding nothing. (And they never actually stop being problematic unless you remove anything recognisably Orcish from them)

Turning them into an "object of horror" just makes them things to kill, but with another step in the way.

Or things to run away from or hide from, or you can try to evacuate towns of people from their path (with the added horror that these are creatures that cannot be reasoned with). Yes you can use zombies, just like if you have a culture of nomads you can use humans. As I said, there's not really any good reason to use Orcs at all.

Just in case you weren't aware, there's nothing wrong with having orcs as bad guys. What's wrong is making them an Always Evil race.

You can but there's zero reason to.