What is the point of GM's notes?

[Maxperson]

You bet!

On D&D and rules:

There are many, many ways to play D&D (as we all know and we've probably exhaustively gone over them all in this thread). In D&D, the math works like this in terms of Follow the Rules (go back to my post and you can call this the Assessing Factors when it comes to Rules - like establishing Effect in Blades and setting Ob in MG). Play Priorities with respect to rules:

a) Skilled Play Priority (follow the rules)

b) Play to Find Out (What Happens) Priority (follow the rules)

c) GM Storyteller/AP Priority (don't follow/ignore the rules if they get in the way of "preferred/required story outcomes" or "fun")

On player/table-facing:

a) If the DCs to use and/or process for determining them are codified and the discussion of them is transparent at the table such that they are revealed and dice are rolled out in the open, this is player/table-facing.

b) If the DCs to use and/or process for determining them are not codified and/or the discussion of them at the table is either nonexistent or opaque and/or the dice are rolled in secret, this is GM-facing.

---

So, for instance. A game that features Skilled Play + Play to Find Out Priority + Table Facing will play/feel very different from a game that features GM Storyteller/AP Priority + GM-Facing.

I don't know if this is part of c) in the "On D&D and rules" above, but I will ignore/change the rules when I hit a situation where enacting the rule as written will result in something nonsensical. Rules are great, but even if they work 99% of the time, there are those odd situations where sometimes they get in the way of what makes sense, rather than facilitate what makes sense. I mean, that could technically still fall under "fun," because we don't enjoy nonsensical situations, but I still think that it's different enough to bring up as perhaps a d) in that section.

 

[Maxperson]

I was there. I can tell you how the players learned about the shaft: I told them! And I can tell you how I learned about it: I read the module. (Double Adventure 1, Shadows)

The fact that the players decided to have their PCs enter the complex doesn't change anything about the truth of the above paragraph. The fact that they declared actions for their PCs that obliged me to tell them about the pendulum in the deep shaft doesn't change anything about the above paragraph, other than to explain why I told them.

That fact does change the process of how they learned about it, though. Unless you simply told them in session 1 before they ever got to a complex, "Hey, there's a complex with a shaft in it. I read about it in the module," there are more steps in the process which you are ignoring here. You are ignoring that they first had to make choices and explore to the point where the reached the shaft and trigger your statement to them

 

[Bedrockgames]

Let me just Maxperson you for a second....

I am not sure what this is in reference to. Generally I am not a fan of definitional arguments because it is very easy to equivocate, argue from proscriptive definitions. i only usually factor in definitions of a person seems to be using a definition that doesn’t have a lot of currency

 

[Maxperson]

Whatever. One, you obviously didn't read my posts (see your comment about high level play above). Two, you've somehow taken my argument that resource management mitigates against the 5MWD and somehow made it not only your idea but even managed to paste on a value judgement about it. Three, cantrips don't change the picture, if they did 5E wouldn't have issues with the 5MWD but it does, enormous problems. To sum up, yes resource management works against the 5MWD, congratulations, you've restated my point.

Resource management is the cause of the 5MWD. It's the loss of once a day resources that makes people stop and rest. Other resources like food, which is cheap and easily carried in fairly large amounts, rarely restricted things to the point where it would reverse the 5MWD and cause rush. Instead, low food typically caused them to go back to town for another 5MWD and to buy more food.

The most common way to avoid the 5MWD is to provide a time crunch that the PCs would have to overcome. The two issues with that, though is that 1) you can't use it more than once in a while without it feeling really contrived and heavy handed in controlling the players, and 2) when the players got low enough on resources, they would often just quit and go back to report failure. "Sorry my lord. We couldn't rescue the princess before she was married off to the evil Duke." Players rarely got their PCs killed due to their resources being too low to continue on.

 

[Maxperson]

with me it’s a 44 year old man-child you are arguing with

With me it's a 51 year old who is quite simply never wrong. Unless I'm arguing with my wife. Or with my boss. Or with a police officer. Or... Or... Or... Dangit!

 

[Maxperson]

Let me just Maxperson you for a second and provide a basic dictionary definition of aesthetic: "a set of principles underlying the work of a particular artist or artistic movement."

The bolded is the issue. Living, breathing world isn't an artistic movement, nor is it limited to a particular DM(artist).

 

[Aldarc]

I don't know: is a dungeon crawl an aesthetic. Is letting the dice fall where they may an aesthetic. To me your remark that it was just an aesthetic, seemed to be getting at it being pretty superficial. Whereas I think there are number of structures, techniques, etc. at work in a living world sandbox. If all you mean by aesthetic is a set of guiding principles, then I suppose pretty much anything we talk about here could be an aesthetic.

You were likely reading insult where there was none, as when I have been saying that it's an "aesthetic," I am not implying anything superficial about it. Describing a "living world" as an aesthetic means that your principles, techniques, tools, and "art process" are all (or should be) working towards supporting/achieving that goal or vision. "Aesthetics" are good, particularly in TTRPGs wherein we are often trying to cultivate a particular aesthetic(s) in our games.

I am not sure what this is in reference to. Generally I am not a fan of definitional arguments because it is very easy to equivocate, argue from proscriptive definitions. i only usually factor in definitions of a person seems to be using a definition that doesn’t have a lot of currency

I'm normally not a fan of dictionary definitional arguments either for very similar reasons. My purpose here, however, is not equivocation but elucidation to show you how your description of "living world" aligns almost text book perfect with what is often meant by "aesthetics" as I briefly explain above.

 

[Maxperson]

I am not sure what this is in reference to. Generally I am not a fan of definitional arguments because it is very easy to equivocate, argue from proscriptive definitions. i only usually factor in definitions of a person seems to be using a definition that doesn’t have a lot of currency

People who lack solid arguments really dislike when definitions are used, but sometimes I'm forced to provide a definition to people who clearly aren't understanding what a word means. So he's "Maxpersoning" you by providing a definition that doesn't apply. LOL

 

[Fenris-77]

Resource management is the cause of the 5MWD. It's the loss of once a day resources that makes people stop and rest. Other resources like food, which is cheap and easily carried in fairly large amounts, rarely restricted things to the point where it would reverse the 5MWD and cause rush. Instead, low food typically caused them to go back to town for another 5MWD and to buy more food.

The most common way to avoid the 5MWD is to provide a time crunch that the PCs would have to overcome. The two issues with that, though is that 1) you can't use it more than once in a while without it feeling really contrived and heavy handed in controlling the players, and 2) when the players got low enough on resources, they would often just quit and go back to report failure. "Sorry my lord. We couldn't rescue the princess before she was married off to the evil Duke." Players rarely got their PCs killed due to their resources being too low to continue on.

Ahh, I see where we're going wrong here. I'm specifically talking about limited physical resources like torches and food. not per day abilities. I should have been clearer about that. Physical resources very much establish time sensitivity, which is why they mitigate the 5MWD, most especially at low and mid tier. Obviously this doesn't help if there are abilities that obviate those resources, like the spell Goodberry example, which completely obviates the need to carry rations for most groups. A hand-wavey approach to Darkvision is also a killer here.

 

[Aldarc]

The bolded is the issue. Living, breathing world isn't an artistic movement, nor is it limited to a particular DM(artist).

This is the sort of equivocation that Bedrockgames was likely talking about, and you have definitely been repeatedly called out by many others in this forum for appealing to dictionary definitions (and mis-readings thereof) for making these sort of flimsy arguments, including much earlier in this thread.