D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Oofta]

But a lot of us ARE talking about the game at large. About working to have WoTC change the way the game is published to remove some of these depictions that really do not work for a lot of us.

I'm not going to debate that topic any more. Because no matter how much I talk about fixing language, clarifying that alignment is just a default, there will always be accusations of implied racism or somehow I'm playing the game wrong. It's not worth discussing.

Feel free to discuss whatever you want, if I talk about orcs (or goblins or kobolds or anything else) I'm only talking about my personal home campaign.

 

[Mecheon]

I mean, is it really so difficult for folks here to invent a race that is evil to its core and has no ties to a real ethnicity?

Realistically though, an entire race isn't going to be all one thing. Dragonlance's "All elves are 'good' despite having an entire civilisation of slavers who enslave people who lose in wars to them" is as bad worldbuilding wise as any other number of "This race is all evil", its just we're expected to side with these monsters for some reason rather than kill them. There's going to be variance in any race, unless its something like an aberration (which are their whole thing)

 

[Oofta]

So, are all your orcs irredeemably evil? Even the babies?

Why does wanting to have irredeemably evil barbarians mean all orcs have to be evil?

If you think that colonialism is a bad thing to have in your game, why is an Always Evil race OK in your mind?


At the moment, I'm just really weirded out by the fact that you seem to think that giving a nonhuman race a culture and giving individuals of that race individual motivations makes them human. That, to me, is an incredibly alien thought process, and I'm curious as to how your head works.

I assume you don't read every post. I know I don't. No one has ever encountered a female orc in my campaign, much less young orcs.

As for the rest, I know no explanation I make will satisfy you and it just leads to threads being shut down. Kind of surprised it's made it this far.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Realistically though, an entire race isn't going to be all one thing. Dragonlance's "All elves are 'good' despite having an entire civilisation of slavers who enslave people who lose in wars to them" is as bad worldbuilding wise as any other number of "This race is all evil", its just we're expected to side with these monsters for some reason rather than kill them. There's going to be variance in any race, unless its something like an aberration (which are their whole thing)

I don't really know enough about Dragonlance to understand this example, so I guess... I agree?

 

[Mirtek]

So, are all your orcs irredeemably evil? Even the babies?

Two words: Goblin Slayer

 

[Vaalingrade]

Two words: Goblin Slayer

AKA: Dexter the Animated Series.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I was responding to

Just saying that the assumption that because all orcs encountered are evil that it's okay to "hunt" them falls flat in my campaign.

First, I don't use XP so there would be no point. Second, hunting sentient creatures, even evil ones for sport is not something I would support in my game.

I just get tired of the leap from "certain monsters are evil in my campaign" to "as a DM I support genocide or killing them for funzies."

So, that is tangential to the point, so I will clarify. When I say “hunt down”, I am referring to taking jobs or quests that involve bringing a creature or group to justice. If I’d meant what you are talking about, I’d have just said “hunt”.

Regardless, in the post you quoted, I am talking about whether or not it matters whether a given bandit is evil. I posit that it doesn’t, because you’re either fighting them because of their actions, or not. The only time that it matters if a nazi/bandit/Orc raider is a conscript or a volunteer is when they have surrendered and are on trial for their crimes.

In a battle? Makes no difference whatsoever. That guy is trying to kill my neighbor and take his sheeps. He surrenders or flees before I get to him, or he dies. Simple enough.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because if they weren't I wouldn't bother having them in my game. They would serve no role. Why have anything other than humans in the game if every creature is just a human that looks a little different?

The implied dichotomy here doesn’t exist.

It is not a binary choice between always-evil orcs and humans that look a little different.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm not going to debate that topic any more. Because no matter how much I talk about fixing language, clarifying that alignment is just a default, there will always be accusations of implied racism or somehow I'm playing the game wrong. It's not worth discussing.

Feel free to discuss whatever you want, if I talk about orcs (or goblins or kobolds or anything else) I'm only talking about my personal home campaign.

If you aren't going to be having the same conversation as everyone else, why bother?

I mean, seriously, you want to defend your home game, but we are talking about changing the production of DnD. Fixing the language is a great step, everyone agrees with that one. I'm not sure it is worth clinging to alignment, but that is a different issue.

But, coming in to say "I don't care about the larger game, but I'm going to run my game how I want" and then arguing with us because we are trying to change your game, when we are trying to change the game at large... I mean, don't you see how that is a pointless endeavor? You can't convince us to stop pushing for universal change by saying that you don't like it and you won't change. Fine. Keep your game the way you want. Why argue with us over stuff you don't care about?

 

[Bohandas]

So, are all your orcs irredeemably evil? Even the babies?

Why does wanting to have irredeemably evil barbarians mean all orcs have to be evil?

There's a difference between irredemably evil and naturally predisposed to evil, one is an absolute and the other is an inclination

why is an Always Evil race OK in your mind?

Rejecting them outright requires some pretty big leaps. For such a thing to be impossible it would require that dark triad personality traits ano only are not but in fact cannot be inherited. Otherwise a genetic bottleneck could conceivably lead to an entire population having those traits.

Darth Vader is coherent. General Grevious is coherent. Sauron is coherent. The Joker, the Penguin, Ernst Blofeld... these are some of the greatest villains of all time, and have their own speech patterns and ticks that make their lines quotable. I would not say any of these voices exemplifies a specific culture. All are intelligent as well.

I mean, is it really so difficult for folks here to invent a race that is evil to its core and has no ties to a real ethnicity?

No, what I meant by 'coherent' was that the words in the language would mean something instead of just being random syllables. Not everybody is like Tolkien and has the time and the skill to create an entire language from scratch, so reusing an existing language could be a substitute for that