Pathfinder 2E High Level Play

[CapnZapp]

(cont'd)

As for the arbitrariness I kind of see the point, but think the reaction to completely disallow legendary creatures is going too far.

Yes, for humanoid creatures a Solo template feels out of place. There simply is no good explanation for a level 10 Wizard or Guard Captain suddenly having many times more hit points than any other human of the same level.

You need the "monstrous factor" to explain it. For instance, if that Wizard is turned into a Lich, I can buy it. Or if the Guard Captain is infused with demonic energies and becomes some kind of half-fiend or something.

But for regular NPCs as opposed to monsters it doesn't work for me*. But that does not mean I want to abolish the idea. For dragons especially it is a wonderful idea!

*) I'm even struggling with how Pathfinder 2 does nothing to distinguish between NPCs and monsters. Even a low-level beggar is built as a monster in Pathfinder 2. But this means it has significantly more hit points, and significantly better attacks. (A monster above your level is likely to crit you with its first attack while your own first attack is more likely to miss than hit, even if you're a Fighter)

I would love a second set of creation tables intended for NPCs (that is "civilized humanoid non-supernatural monsters"), where the resulting to hit, damage and AC values are in the same ballpark as a hero of equivalent level. (Without having to create those NPCs using the full PC creation rules)

 

[kenada]

I don’t think it’s called out anywhere else, but the GMG suggests that creatures can have multiple levels. It does this with several NPCs in the NPC gallery. For example, a merchant is a level −1 creature normally, but it is a level 4 creature for mercantile stuff.

That addresses the problem of NPCs with silly amounts of hit points. I don’t think it’s been used with monsters, but I don’t see why not. You could have a dragon that is 10th level outside its lair but is 18th when inside due to magical synergies. That even gives the PCs a new strategy (luring it out to fight it where it is weaker).

I would love a second set of creation tables intended for NPCs (that is "civilized humanoid non-supernatural monsters"), where the resulting to hit, damage and AC values are in the same ballpark as a hero of equivalent level. (Without having to create those NPCs using the full PC creation rules)

Just use a value two levels lower from the guidelines for building creatures? Or do you mean something like the NPC tables from the 3e DMG (which had level-by-level breakdowns for each class)?

 

[dave2008]

I don’t think it’s called out anywhere else, but the GMG suggests that creatures can have multiple levels. It does this with several NPCs in the NPC gallery. For example, a merchant is a level −1 creature normally, but it is a level 4 creature for mercantile stuff.

That is an interesting approach and I had not heard about it before. It is a bit weird, but I get it. It is better than making a bunch on non-adventurer classes to make you a good merchant or whatever.

EDIT: I wonder if that means they have two sets of XP? Obviously if you defeat a -1 lvl merchant in fight it is not the same as defeating the same merchant in a mercantile transaction (social challenge / encounter) which they are lvl 4 in.

Actually, this give me a whole new idea for a game design.

 

[CapnZapp]

I don’t think it’s called out anywhere else, but the GMG suggests that creatures can have multiple levels. It does this with several NPCs in the NPC gallery. For example, a merchant is a level −1 creature normally, but it is a level 4 creature for mercantile stuff.

That addresses the problem of NPCs with silly amounts of hit points.

That's being charitable.

It only does so with specialists like craftsmen and other experts where you want a low-level "civilian" being able to compete with mid-level heroes in, say, crafting, lore or medicine.

 

[CapnZapp]

That is an interesting approach and I had not heard about it before. It is a bit weird, but I get it. It is better than making a bunch on non-adventurer classes to make you a good merchant or whatever.

Actually the first time I thought of the idea was back when d20 Call of Cthulhu was a thing.

I was sorely disappointed the authors were unable to divorce the idea "every starting level 1 hero must suck at everything".

To me, the ability to create a brand new character that still is a professor of anthropology or whatever (with the skill bonus far higher than what a level 1 character otherwise can boast) is fundamental.

PS. Of course, the proper response is "don't play CoC with a game featuring hit points and levels" but still.

 

[Teemu]

If you wanted a dragon to be deadlier in its lair, you’d add hazards to represent the increased power.

 

[kenada]

That's being charitable.

It only does so with specialists like craftsmen and other experts where you want a low-level "civilian" being able to compete with mid-level heroes in, say, crafting, lore or medicine.

Isn’t that the gist of the complaint? You don’t want NPCs built like monsters, so don’t. Create them all as very low level characters except for their specialty. That eliminates the “beggar has has significantly more hit points, and significantly better attacks” scenario while still allowing said beggar to be a good source of information on the street (because their Society skill is very high). The reason for pointing to the GMG was to show that such an approach isn’t unprecedented.

 

[kenada]

I wonder if that means they have two sets of XP? Obviously if you defeat a -1 lvl merchant in fight it is not the same as defeating the same merchant in a mercantile transaction (social challenge / encounter) which they are lvl 4 in.

You’d use the level appropriate to the challenge.

The level listed on an NPC's stat block is their level assuming they're used in combat; they should be able to hold their own as well as any other creature of that level. But many of these NPCs are primarily noncombatants who are much more skilled in their occupation than they ever would be in combat. To that end, those specialist NPCs' entries also mention a higher level that you would use when the PCs have to compete against them in their area of expertise.

 

[dave2008]

You’d use the level appropriate to the challenge.

My question is really about what is in the stat block. But I guess that doesn't really mater as much if everything is relative to level. To PF2 statblocks even list XP?

EDIT: I just checked, they do not. Nothing to see here, please move on!

 

[kenada]

My question is really about what is in the stat block. But I guess that doesn't really mater as much if everything is relative to level. To PF2 statblocks even list XP?

EDIT: I just checked, they do not. Nothing to see here, please move on!

Ah, yep. I misunderstood the question. It’s all relative to your level. If you’re using an absolute XP scale, you’d just pick whatever value corresponds to the level of the challenge.

For exampe (assuming CapnZapp’s absolute XP scale): If the PCs are out looking for bum fights, they only get 2 XP for every beggar they kill. If they best the beggar in a trivia challenge regarding fortified wines, then they get 10 XP.