What is the point of GM's notes?

Overall I had a lot of success with the format of.
  1. The problem I am trying to solve
  2. How I went about solving it
  3. The results of having tried the solution.
Written with the attitude, here is some useful to try if you experienced the same issue.

This is a pretty decent suggestion.
I have a momentous 5e session tonight and I haven't quite figured out the details of the framing and the mechanics for resolving the outcome of a particular event, but if I manage to come up with anything I'm remotely happy with then I will post it.
 

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What I mean is that you seem incredibly focused on high level details. I am not saying there is no concern for those more personal details. Only that you seem to be much more focused on groups, logistics, and reasoning things out than representing vibrant characters with strong personalities.

We all have limited energy. That energy needs to go somewhere. Putting our focus somewhere means we are not putting it elsewhere. We only have so much time to prep and more importantly so much time and energy at the table. We all have cognitive limitations that cannot be solved by increasing work load.


Imagine we both spend the same amount of time on prep as the standard for analysis. I spend it on developing personal connections to the PCs, the immediate situation, and really developing the NPCs. You spend it on more high level details about troop movements, the interactions of various sects, and the history of your setting. How does that affect play? How do our different priorities affect where the energy and focus is during play?
I think that impression was created because I was answering a post that asked about managing parts of the world I would call living structures (forces, groups, economies, etc). My approach is actually a combo of that impersonal layer and the personal. A good analogy would be macro history and micro history combined and meeting in the middle (the point of contact being the PCs). I often rely on history as a model for understanding game worlds. Just in case anyone is unfamiliar, macro history, at least as I am using the term (it has other classifications) is based on the large scale approach to history (the long duree of geography, the slow movement of empires and the role of structures like institutions, economies, etc: Fernand Braudel is the iconic example of this kind of approach). Micro history is sometimes called social history and tends to deal with people at the ground level navigating and being affected by those larger forces (the cheese and the worms is the classic example here). So my campaigns are very personal, very cheese and the worms. But I need to tend to larger scale things too
 

This is a pretty decent suggestion.
I have a 5e session tonight and I haven't quite figured out the details of the framing and the mechanics for resolving the outcome but if I manage to come up with anything I'm remotely happy with then I will post it.
Sounds Great. What I outlined is a variant of how case law is formatted. What happens in a RPG campaign can be nuanced so following this type of format can be useful to see how people handled various things and learn from their experience.
 

I think that impression was created because I was answering a post that asked about managing parts of the world I would call living structures (forces, groups, economies, etc). My approach is actually a combo of that impersonal layer and the personal. A good analogy would be macro history and micro history combined and meeting in the middle (the point of contact being the PCs). I often rely on history as a model for understanding game worlds. Just in case anyone is unfamiliar, macro history, at least as I am using the term (it has other classifications) is based on the large scale approach to history (the long duree of geography, the slow movement of empires and the role of structures like institutions, economies, etc: Fernand Braudel is the iconic example of this kind of approach). Micro history is sometimes called social history and tends to deal with people at the ground level navigating and being affected by those larger forces (the cheese and the worms is the classic example here). So my campaigns are very personal, very cheese and the worms. But I need to tend to larger scale things too
I would be interested in seeing you pick out an element or elements of your living structures and how you use that to inform how to roleplay a character in your setting. For example a tax collector or another character in one of your setting's empires.
 

Imagine we both spend the same amount of time on prep as the standard for analysis. I spend it on developing personal connections to the PCs, the immediate situation, and really developing the NPCs. You spend it on more high level details about troop movements, the interactions of various sects, and the history of your setting. How does that affect play? How do our different priorities affect where the energy and focus is during play?
I am not so sure you have to choose between the two. But in terms of focus let’s say mine is split and the PCs get your undivided attention. My guess, and maybe I am wrong, is you are going to be more okay with the model of the larger world not being as important, maybe even falling by the wayside because your focus is the characters and their perspective. I don’t see anything wrong with that. That is my approach to running a lot of horror adventures (I may have ‘living’ elements I. Terms of nice they are specifically dealing with but my focus isn’t on modeling a larger world. But I see my approach as complimentary to dealing with the personal. After all people live there lives inside all kinds of daily structures. Maybe you go to church, go to a university, participate in a hobby like gaming. That stuff puts characters into a clearer context (if I know a given box is part of Tree Dwelling Nuns, that helps inform my sense of the cfaracters motivations and limitations (I know for example that whatever this character offers to the PCs at this moment, he will need to justify to the abbess (and that she has to weigh how this impacts their alliances and conflicts: plus the sect has a whole belief system that would influence the Npcs behavior)
 

I think my biggest issues, both in the commentary in this thread and also historically, from living world proponents comes down to what I see is a lack of acknowledging the cognitive limitations all us must deal with and what I personally view as a fairly reductive view of their own play. Basically my personal experience both with other GMs (I have played with and talked to in person) as well as in online communities is a sense that they have found the secret sauce. That they are literal Mentats who do not operate under the same limitations we all face. There also seems to be an erasure of the messier elements of running a game that do not fit their aesthetic goals. Stuff I cannot help but see when I run or play a game.
That's not unique to Sandbox DMs. Lots of DMs play up their style while attempting to diminish other styles. I can't tell you how many times(it's too many to remember) DMs here have told me that player facing games are the awesome sauce and if I just understood them it would change everything.

I also don't know what cognitive limitations have to do with anything going on in a living world. Nobody is suggesting that we can track all of the details like a real world. We're saying that by putting in some, just some events and natural consequences to PC actions that happen outside of their view, it alters the feel of the game. It makes it feel like a living, breathing world. It doesn't take very much more in the way of brainpower to add those things in.
 

On the topic of significant misunderstandings would be the above. All the posters that you've been primarily interacting with here have no issues with D&D, sandbox play, or living worlds in general. Nor are any of them advocating for a secret sauce level up for the games they've examined in the course of the discussion (Blades, DW, Traveller etc). The goal has been, and continues to be, to get granular about prep and prep styles in terms of what they actually accomplish at the table. GM notes is probably the most common play style, which is probably a function of the popularity of D&D generally and the accessibility of just running published adventures more generally. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but it's also not what experienced GMs tend to do in their games. It's not what you do, it's not what I do, and it's not what @pemerton or @Manbearcat do.

So the question then becomes what are we all doing? We certainly aren't all doing the same thing, pretty obviously. We all do different things, things that work at our tables and for our groups. The differences and similarities there are what's interesting about this thread, not so much bashing or trying to define GM notes. We all know what notes are, and we all have them, what's important is what gets done with them.
I don't believe that's entirely accurate. It may not be what you and Manbearcat do, but Pemerton presents his style in glorious light with the words that he uses, and diminish other styles with words and phrases designed to evoke negative responses, like railroad and play to discover what's in the DMs notes. He covers it over reasonably well with his language skills, but it's pretty apparent after you've read a few of his longer posts and OPs.
 

I am not so sure you have to choose between the two. But in terms of focus let’s say mine is split and the PCs get your undivided attention. My guess, and maybe I am wrong, is you are going to be more okay with the model of the larger world not being as important, maybe even falling by the wayside because your focus is the characters and their perspective. I don’t see anything wrong with that. That is my approach to running a lot of horror adventures (I may have ‘living’ elements I. Terms of nice they are specifically dealing with but my focus isn’t on modeling a larger world. But I see my approach as complimentary to dealing with the personal. After all people live there lives inside all kinds of daily structures. Maybe you go to church, go to a university, participate in a hobby like gaming. That stuff puts characters into a clearer context (if I know a given box is part of Tree Dwelling Nuns, that helps inform my sense of the cfaracters motivations and limitations (I know for example that whatever this character offers to the PCs at this moment, he will need to justify to the abbess (and that she has to weigh how this impacts their alliances and conflicts: plus the sect has a whole belief system that would influence the Npcs behavior)

I am not saying there are only two approaches here. That's a category error. My basic argument is that there is a cost to everything we do - effort spent in one direction is effort that is not available elsewhere. There is also a cognitive cost in that one sort of prep or time spent focusing more on high level strategizing during the session affects our mental processing. That we do not get to have the best of all worlds ever.

What I often get from your commentary seems to imply that these sorts of tradeoffs do not exist for you.
 

I would be interested in seeing you pick out an element or elements of your living structures and how you use that to inform how to roleplay a character in your setting. For example a tax collector or another character in one of your setting's empires.
See my post above about the sect. Another example would be a local magistrate. I have the power structure mapped out. I know what a county magistrates role is, what a district magistrates role is, what a prefectural magistrates role is. They enforce laws, collect taxes, and promote farming. One of their chief functions is handling bandits through their sheriffs (but there are rival power structures they need to deal with as well). Because they serve the empire they are technically supposed to arrest martial heroes but they often can’t because they lack adequate resources to deal with someone that powerful. I also map out all the magistrates in each region where I can. For example I have a prefecture where each district I made an entry for the magistrate (county level magistrates were too numerous to individually make entries for: at least for me, though I do have many of them as well). I also have a chart with each of them on it showing who their sherif is, who the resident patrolling inspector is, how many men each OBS has; and chart shows which magistrate is loyal, bribed (by whom), etc. same with sheriffs and patrolling inspectors. I also have tracked politics to know what tensions and conflicts create problems for the magistrate. This all helps feed into how I play that magistrate (or the sheriff) when he comes up in play. Players belonging to the 87 Killers, going before a magistrate who is bribed by Lady 87, will be more likely to be released and not charged with a crime. Stuff like that.
 

Which style ? I was not aware a problematic style had been singled out
I outlined it several (many?) pages ago, mostly so we could discard it as something that any of us were actually talking about. There is a kind of GM for whom their notes are inviolate, by which I mean the notes are their prime concern when it comes to framing and consequences. Those games tend to be very linear and would usually be described as railroads. When the players step outside the notes the GM works to push them back on track. That's none of us here, but it is common for a bunch of reasons.
 

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