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What is the point of GM's notes?

hawkeyefan

Legend
When @Emirikol refers to "winging it" I read it as referring to where big things - entire adventures, major geographic features, etc. - are being made up on the fly. The term "improvising" refers to smaller things - the name of the gate guard, the language(s) the captured Orc can speak, etc.

And there is a rather significant distinction, in my eyes anyway: improvisation is (in theory) building on to an already-solid setting framework, while winging it is trying to build that framework at the same time.

Errors in small-scale improv (e.g. "last week that guard's name was Joscan, now you're calling him Harry?" can be brushed off if the underlying framework is sound. Errors in building the framework, not so much; and my guess is it's the latter type of errors that cause games to fail.

Again, it depends on the game.

There are games where you absolutely do craft “adventures” as you play. And you determine a lot of setting details and other significant details during play.

There are others that expect and/or require that the GM prepare a large amount of material ahead of time.

We’ve been over this before though...your concerns about consistency of setting in games that require establishing setting through play aren’t really founded.

Plenty of us that have experience with both kinds of games have repeatedly explained this.

And I’ll add that I used to share that view. I started playing some of those games, and I learned that I was wrong.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I'm not sure what counts as the adventure here - especially in the context of a sandbox game where (as I understand it) the players can choose any goal or action for their PCs.

But putting that to one side, there seem to be unstated assumptions here about what the role of the setting framework is.
In a nutshell, it's the stage on which all the action takes place.
Eg are we talking about maps and keys used to resolve action declarations? is a group of important NPCs defined by their motives and relationships, or their mechanical stats, or both? what work are these things doing in play that makes prep so important?
The setting framework includes its maps (work done: to show how things geographically relate on whatever scale is required at the time), history (work done: to show how things/places/nations within the setting got to be what they are), cultures and species (work done: detailing what exists here, what doesn't, etc.), cosmology and deities/pantheons (work done: giving religious-based characters something to work with, potentially setting up conflicts or wars etc.), nations, kingdoms, and realms (work done: giving names to some places, setting up potential for conflicts or wars etc.), a few key NPCs and their motives/relationships* (work done: making things much easier on myself later if-when the PCs ever interact with one).

That's just the high-level overview of the setting. For the intended "core" adventuring area there's a bit more detail on all of this.

There's no assumption that the PCs are necessarily going to ever interact with any given element presented; the mere potential for interaction with such, however, makes me want those elements somewhat in place ahead of time so I'm not floundering mid-session or talking myself into a corner via contradictions if the party pulls a sudden left turn on me.

Then, if the party in Torcha declares their next action is to travel to Karnos we can all look at the map and gauge roughly how long it'll take, what the general terrain is like, maybe how safe or risky the trip might be, and so forth.

* - and maybe stats, for any I ever think the PCs might want to fight one day.

Is this what you were after?
 

pemerton

Legend
Does the game in question require massive amounts of information that needs to be consistent? If so, then how much of this is already established and known?

My point is that all of this depends on the game. .
Right! So much this!

This is what I was pointing to in my posts upthread both about whether or not I need to know the layout of a starport when GMing Classic Traveller, and in my ranking of campaigns by degree of starting prep. And also what I was not just pointing to but directly addressing in my post upthread asking @Lanefan about the role of the setting framework.

The setting framework includes its maps (work done: to show how things geographically relate on whatever scale is required at the time), history (work done: to show how things/places/nations within the setting got to be what they are), cultures and species (work done: detailing what exists here, what doesn't, etc.), cosmology and deities/pantheons (work done: giving religious-based characters something to work with, potentially setting up conflicts or wars etc.), nations, kingdoms, and realms (work done: giving names to some places, setting up potential for conflicts or wars etc.), a few key NPCs and their motives/relationships* (work done: making things much easier on myself later if-when the PCs ever interact with one).

That's just the high-level overview of the setting. For the intended "core" adventuring area there's a bit more detail on all of this.

There's no assumption that the PCs are necessarily going to ever interact with any given element presented; the mere potential for interaction with such, however, makes me want those elements somewhat in place ahead of time so I'm not floundering mid-session or talking myself into a corner via contradictions if the party pulls a sudden left turn on me.

Then, if the party in Torcha declares their next action is to travel to Karnos we can all look at the map and gauge roughly how long it'll take, what the general terrain is like, maybe how safe or risky the trip might be, and so forth.

* - and maybe stats, for any I ever think the PCs might want to fight one day.

Is this what you were after?
That sort of thing, yes. I'm not surprised to see maps in there, and their use to resolve travel.

Picking up on a couple of the other things - cosmology and deities to give religious PCs something to work with; history to show how things got to be what they are - there seems to be a heavy emphasis here on not just what there is but knowing, in advance, how it got there.

To think about how a different approach might work, consider the following:

* In the real world, the way that we establish historical facts, and even more cosmological facts, is to look at what there is and to reason back from it to probably causes, with that reasoning informed and constrained by our best accounts of the relevant causal processes;​
* Sometimes we don't know;​
* Sometimes we discover new things that are and these force a revision of our historical conjectures, and perhaps even a revision of our accounts of the causal processes.​

None of those facts about how humans work stuff out about the world they live in gives any reason to think that the world is inconsistent. It just means its complicated and we don't know everything about it that there is to know!

Now imagine adopting a similar sort of approach in establishing a RPG setting:

* Eg a player chooses a god for his/her religious PC, based on what s/he thinks is cool or genre appropriate or whatever - now we know that that god is party of the setting;​
* Maybe another player writes up some backstory for his/her PC which refers to a time spent in exile in The Barrens, so now we know that place exists;​
* Etc, etc.​

From this information about what is, we gradually build up a picture of how it came to be. Our evidence base is pretty thin, and our reasoning isn't scientific, but these are actually complementary as the thinner the evidence base the less likely common sense is to deliver up contradictions!

JRRT did this with LotR. You can see this eg in Unfinished Tales, where we learn how he kept revising the story of Celeborn and Galadriel. That didn't stop him from writing the stuff about Lothlorien in LotR.

I'm not saying that anyone should adopt this sort of approach in RPGing. I'm just pointing out how it is eminently possible.

Of course it won't work if our processes for working out what happens now rely upon all that background/historical stuff as an input. But they don't have to. Other processes are quite possible and can work quite well.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I think this is an interesting video, and gives a pretty good take on Traits, Ideals, Bonds and Flaws as used by myself and probably a large number of D&D players. It's definitely relevant to the turn the conversation has taken in the thread.
IMO, we should be careful about assuming our own perspective as being the one carried by "probably a large number of D&D players." If I were to take my own experience running D&D with various groups as indicative of larger trends, then I would say, in contrast, the Traits, Bonds, and Ideals rarely, if ever, come up by "a large number of D&D players" and that they are mostly forgotten.

If you really want to give it a go, I would definitely check out Rob Conley's guide to running a fantasy sandbox if you haven't because that is the most step by step one I have seen: and he has a link to more posts on each topic at the bottom). His treatment is pretty deep and detailed. You might not need every step, but given that he covers each step in such depth, if there is something you are missing, there is a good chance it is there.
That's a lot of notes creation. (Note: not a bad thing, just a LOT of notes prep.)
 

Imaro

Legend
IMO, we should be careful about assuming our own perspective as being the one carried by "probably a large number of D&D players." If I were to take my own experience running D&D with various groups as indicative of larger trends, then I would say, in contrast, the Traits, Bonds, and Ideals rarely, if ever, come up by "a large number of D&D players" and that they are mostly forgotten.
Well to be fair its not just my experiences,, thats why I referenced the video. The video has had 16,000 views withinn 16 hrs of being posted and over 1,000 likes. I would assume if players weren't using these at all then so many probably wouldn't be taking the time to watch a video about them, but admitedly I could be wrong. That said I'd definitely be interested in evidence that supported the position that they are flat out ignored or discarded by a large part of the playerbase.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Well to be fair its not just my experiences,, thats why I referenced the video. The video has had 16,000 views withinn 16 hrs of being posted and over 1,000 likes. I would assume if players weren't using these at all then so many probably wouldn't be taking the time to watch a video about them, but admitedly I could be wrong. That said I'd definitely be interested in evidence that supported the position that they are flat out ignored or discarded by a large part of the playerbase.
Sure, but I think you are reading too much into too little. It's also a relatively popular D&D channel with subscribers that regularly watches their videos. Also how should we interpret the likes? "Like, because this is how I run it already" or "Like, because I wasn't doing this previously" or even "Like, thanks for making more vid content"?
 

Imaro

Legend
Sure, but I think you are reading too much into too little. It's also a relatively popular D&D channel with subscribers that regularly watches their videos. Also how should we interpret the likes? "Like, because this is how I run it already" or "Like, because I wasn't doing this previously" or even "Like, thanks for making more vid content"?
I don't think I'm reading too much into it. It's an interesting video that aligns with how I use TIBF's in D&D 5e and a piece of evidence (not definitive proof which is why I was careful to use words like probably) that it is used by others in that way. Now if there is a similar piece of evidence for the conjecture of them being disregarded by most I'm willing to take a look at it...

EDIT: In general you don't like a video just because it was made... You like it because the content was valuable in some way or enjoyable in some way to you...otherwise what do dislikes mean since the content is already made?
 

Aldarc

Legend
I don't think I'm reading too much into it. It's an interesting video that aligns with how I use TIBF's in D&D 5e and a piece of evidence (not definitive proof which is why I was careful to use words like probably) that it is used by others in that way. Now if there is a similar piece of evidence for the conjecture of them being disregarded by most I'm willing to take a look at it...
It's an interesting video made by two guys that aligns with how you use TIBFs, but that's hardly indicative of how most people use TIBFs. If you are curious about evidence that people don't necessarily use them, I would look for starters at a number of threads in the ENWorld forums over the past 6 years talking about TIBFs, where people said that they don't use them, ignore them, or don't find them particularly all that great.

Also, one has to take some measure of caution regarding selection bias with the creation of such videos. D&D content creators who use TIBFs are more likely to make videos about using them. Would D&D content creators who don't use TIBFs or care for them make YouTube videos about ignoring them? IME, gaming content creators generally don't make content about things they don't use, but, rather, about things that they do use (or adjust).

EDIT: In general you don't like a video just because it was made... You like it because the content was valuable in some way or enjoyable in some way to you...otherwise what do dislikes mean since the content is already made?
I have liked videos that I disagreed with for purposes of helping those content creators, who may otherwise create good content, and the YouTube algorithm.
 

Imaro

Legend
It's an interesting video made by two guys that aligns with how you use TIBFs, but that's hardly indicative of how most people use TIBFs. If you are curious about evidence that people don't necessarily use them, I would look for starters at a number of threads in the ENWorld forums over the past 6 years talking about TIBFs, where people said that they don't use them, ignore them, or don't find them particularly all that great.

Do you think the majority of new players that have been brought into 5e post on forums? Better question do you think the majority of 5e players in general post on forums? I don't think checking posts on enworld would be indicative at all of how the game is played by the majority in the wild.

Also, one has to take some measure of caution regarding selection bias with the creation of such videos. D&D content creators who use TIBFs are more likely to make videos about using them. Would D&D content creators who don't use TIBFs or care for them make YouTube videos about ignoring them? IME, gaming content creators generally don't make content about things they don't use, but, rather, about things that they do use (or adjust).

I think they'd make videos about why they don't work well, since you can find numerous videos in this vein about various TTRPG's like this all over youtube.

I have liked videos that I disagreed with for purposes of helping those content creators, who may otherwise create good content, and the YouTube algorithm.

That's interesting... I wouldn't do that because all it does is encourage them to make more content you don't find valuable or agree with... I don't support things I don't like. But to each their own.
 

That's a lot of notes creation. (Note: not a bad thing, just a LOT of notes prep.)

It is very detailed. But it is also something where you can read it and just use what works for you (for instance, air currents are not something I ever worry about: I leave that stuff to the gods in most of my settings)
 

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