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What is the point of GM's notes?

Aldarc

Legend
Do you think the majority of new players that have been brought into 5e post on forums? Better question do you think the majority of 5e players in general post on forums? I don't think checking posts on enworld would be indicative at all of how the game is played by the majority in the wild.
I don't think so, but I'm also not arguing so. I'm saying that there is evidence that are a fair share of people don't care or use TIBFs in 5e D&D. I have also encountered similar discussions surrounding TIBFs in gaming communities on Reddit, Discord, and other forums.

Moreover, does Matt Mercer or Critical Role use TIBFs? Does Adventure Zone use them? Or Acquisitions Incorporated? Do we even see them actually being used in the plays that WotC runs to promote the game? I don't know as I don't watch these. I don't think I have ever seen them come up in Matt Colville's video streams of his games.

Personally, I have never seen TIBFs come up in my own games of D&D 5e, whether as a player or GM.

I think they'd make videos about why they don't work well, since you can find numerous videos in this vein about various TTRPG's like this all over youtube.
I vaguely seem to recall Web DM talk about how TIBFs and the Inspiration tie-in mechanic are almost famously forgotten and vestigial as they have little impact. Does that count?
 

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Imaro

Legend
I don't think so, but I'm also not arguing so. I'm saying that there is evidence that are a fair share of people don't care or use TIBFs in 5e D&D. I have also encountered similar discussions surrounding TIBFs in gaming communities on Reddit, Discord, and other forums.

Moreover, does Matt Mercer or Critical Role use TIBFs? Does Adventure Zone use them? Or Acquisitions Incorporated? Do we even see them actually being used in the plays that WotC runs to promote the game? I don't know as I don't watch these. I don't think I have ever seen them come up in Matt Colville's video streams of his games.

Personally, I have never seen TIBFs come up in my own games of D&D 5e, whether as a player or GM.


I vaguely seem to recall Web DM talk about how TIBFs and the Inspiration tie-in mechanic are almost famously forgotten and vestigial as they have little impact. Does that count?
I'd love any links you have to the opposite viewpoint as I am honestly interested in learning about the other take.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
Personally, I have never seen TIBFs come up in my own games of D&D 5e, whether as a player or GM.
As I've said upthread somewhere, they're explicitly deprecated in the games I run. The people who've DMed 5E games I've played in have never even gestured at using them, but they've all been long-time D&D folks--It seems plausible that people starting with 5E would be more likely to at least try to use them.

Just adding that anecdata, here.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
So I ask the proponents of "living world" play --- how do you solve these problems without turning to player-facing tools and techniques?
So, I'm not--or at least I don't feel like--one of the proponents of "living world" play, but I have a couple of campaigns going in 5E that might have taught me stuff I can pass along, if you're interested.

In case you want to see what there is for results, this is a link to the GDrive folder I share with players, with world information and houserules and stuff. You're welcome to look at anything in there you want to, but the world stuff is probably most relevant, here. Also, the setting is explicitly incomplete and a work in progress--I'm not done, and I intend to leave spaces for players (or me) to put stuff.

My pre-campaign process (order probably isn't super-important, here):

--Pick a Big Thing or two for the world, and maybe a knock-on-effect or three. For Erkonin, it's that the Gods have been cut off from the world (The Severance), and right after that the demons and devils fought a portion of their eternal war on Erkonin (it was not a pleasant time). The big knock-on effect is that the planar boundaries are a bit porous--and some of the rules related to the planes and planar creatures are a bit different. If you want to work out a different calendar, now seems like a good time--though really any time will probably do.

--Roughly map out like a continent.

--Place your starting point on that continent map. Work out relevant details of that starting point. For my first campaign, that was Embernook; everything else on the continent came later. I don't map cities in more details than broad neighborhoods. I have started putting specific site names in the neighborhoods, in the city info I give to players, but not defining what those sites are. You plausibly want some NPCs you can rely on the PCs interacting with, written up as much as you need them.

--Suggest that the players write up some small amount of backstory for their characters. Opinions on the right amount vary. What you want is stuff that connects them to the setting, stuff you can use later to tie them to the campaign.

--Figure out how you intend to start the campaign. I generally start with the PCs all in the same place at the same time, and then throw brown stinky stuff at a convenient fan. I plant some information at that scene, with plausible directions for them to go from there.

My in-campaign process (like, between sessions):

--Look at where the party stopped, the previous session. Ponder what they're likely to do next (here, it helps to know how the players are playing their characters, and to have good notes of the previous session). Prepare for what they're likely to do--so, opposition, scenery, and other incidentals. If there's something going on offscreen (which I've done) this is also when you probably want to advance that.

--Don't try to prep more than a session ahead. There may be prep that carries over--that's fine. You might have something like a BBEG with larger plans or goals, but you don't need to detail those (or the BBEG itself) out until/unless the PCs directly interact with them. Sometimes stuff you prep for one session won't matter in play until a session or three later than you thought--as with prep that carries more directly over, that's fine.

--Occasionally, drop stuff in that's not entirely related to what they're working on. Some of this should tie to PC backstories, but not necessarily all of it. In my first campaign, I dropped the first hints of the Hunger Between Worlds in the fourth session, and the first interactions with the Tundra Queen in the fifth; the first mess the PCs interacted with was still kinda ongoing. Both of those threads are still ongoing, nearly seventy sessions later. One of those was specifically inspired by a backstory; the other was not.

--Things about the world will emerge as the campaign progresses--both in play and in prep. This is good. Add those things to the world.

These days, my prep is like maybe a couple of hours per session, and it seems to be getting shorter as the campaigns progress--though part of that may be that when we were gaming in person, I transcribed monsters onto index cards, because we weren't gaming at my place and I didn't want to lug my monster books around. Obviously, what works for me isn't at all guaranteed to work for someone else, or anyone else, or everyone else; but I hope this is helpful.
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
@Emirikol

I think talking in terms of what's required to achieve a certain result is not all that useful. We can achieve what we set out to achieve even if we are engaging in less than optimal techniques or even counter productive techniques. Also the optimal techniques for one set of individuals might be different than what works for a different group. Sometimes it can even be time sensitive.
Well it is at least debatable whether mechanical support in a given situation furthers the success of that goal. It goes back to the many debates about the intersection between player involvement and what a character can do. If the group encounters a puzzle, do you expect the players to solve it or do you make an intelligence check for figuring it out. An intelligence check may be more realistic but for fun it may not be best.

My personal experience with the people I play with is that amount and depth of play stays relatively static across games, but in games where we have mechanical support things feel more tense, stakes are higher, and characters tend to develop in more unexpected ways. In games without mechanical support players tend to engage in lower stakes yet still interesting conversations, push for their goals less, and tend to stick more to preconceived notions of who their characters are.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the stakes are higher". I feel my groups are plenty committed to their in game goals. The stakes often come from the surrounding setting engagement. But again, feelings are subjective and I am not disputing your experience. Just wondering how far it will go for me.
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
Eg are we talking about maps and keys used to resolve action declarations? is a group of important NPCs defined by their motives and relationships, or their mechanical stats, or both? what work are these things doing in play that makes prep so important?

These are not rhetorical questions. I think it would be good for the discussion to hear some answers to them.
Both. I develop these things for most NPCs. Obviously, it's very simplistic or near non-existent for a nobody but well developed for a significant NPC. It would not just be mechanical stats. In fact for some NPCs I don't do the mechanical stats at all. They are not leveled.
 

That's a lot of notes creation. (Note: not a bad thing, just a LOT of notes prep.)
From my post

I find fully fleshing out an area the size of my Blackmarsh setting (a letter sized map) takes
This will probably run to about 10,000 words. You can do this in about 2 weeks spending about 2 hours an evening at a 1,000 words a evening and time drawing maps. Or consider it about 24 hours of work.

The smaller the area or the fewer the personal interconnections the less time it takes. The work increases by the square of the size of the map or number of personal interconnections. A map double the size will take four times the work.

What it took to publish Blackmarsh

Now that based on taking thing to the point of sharing commercially. For a hobbyist considerable time is saved by the fact you are just writing for yourself. So you only need enough to "remember" what it is you want to do about the setting.

For example I ran my first playtests of Scourge of the Demon Wolf (72 page book) based on these notes and a map. Those notes and the maps were a mnemonic aide for much of what into the book.
 
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Something for the notes thread.

Started the game I'm running for @prabe and his wife last evening. I'm attaching that map and @darkbard 's map so (a) you can see my incredible MSPaint skills, (b) you can see how much more the map gets fleshed out as play progresses (the top one is many, many sessions in vs the bottom one that just started), and (c) so you can play the puzzle solving game of sussing out my particular peccadillos (spoilers at the bottom and I SWEAR this isn't true for any other Dungeon World game I've ever run...I have no idea why this turned out like it did):

1.jpg


2.jpg


SPOILER ALERT

Apparently my 2021 Dungeon World Tender Profile would contain:

* I like latitudinal rivers, mountain ranges in the top left, and home steadings at the base of those mountains.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
@Manbearcat

Geography tends to be much less of a concern in most of the games we play, but relationship maps are essential. I have attached the relationship map I made as a player to help me and the rest of the players in our game keep track of what was going on in our Giovanni Chronicles Vampire game. I also attached an early one I used to keep track of just my character's personal connections in a Blades in the Dark game.

As a GM I usually utilize a private wiki with a lot of cross linking. I do not have a good way to share that without providing access to a private server.
 

Attachments

  • Giovanni Chronicles.pdf
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  • Thorns of the Rose.pdf
    1.5 MB · Views: 88

@Campbell

Very cool. I'm not surprised you would have something like this (and more) given what my exposure to your gaming proclivities.

Unlike you and @pemerton , my games (except for games that fundamentally don't play with it; eg Sorcerer or MLwM) absolutely feature terrain (in situation framing, in decision-point framing, in complication deployment, etc) so topography is pretty vital. Even though my games feature low-res maps (or none entirely), having something nascent serves as a "situation provacateur" (in terms of getting my mind rolling/anchored). I work very hard at creating interesting topographical conflicts with a compelling and well-rendered menu of decision-points and engaging complications. Its no surprise that I love good Journey mechanics.

In regards to relationships, I keep a notebook for my games where I just write down new (and relevant) NPCs as they come up and I write a pithy sentence or two about them.

Its nothing like your Relationship Map above. I tend to just keep all of the extra stuff in my head. Writing stuff down (as I mentioned elsewhere) is overwhelmingly just a cognitive exercise for me to cement things in my brain for later access. Now and again, I'll need to take a look at it to remember a name or something (but not particularly often).

I'd take a photo and upload it but oh my god is my shorthand terrifying to behold. Entirely illegible and the "penmanship" looks like a serial killer glued random letters to stationary and send it into the Times sort of chicken scratch.
 

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