D&D General Ravenloft, horror, & safety tools...

[Disgruntled Hobbit]

@AcererakTriple6 Listing possible problems to prevent them from becoming problems is great in theory, but you can't do that if you don't have any idea what the problem is or really even how to discuss it, Take this silly thig from the OP checklist
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ok... So bob does this
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That tells me nothing. What the heck am I supposed to say to alice when she expects to cast web & hold person with her wizard in a couple levels?

Web and Hold Person aren't "plot or story elements." Also, what part of "requires discussion" is unclear?

And there's a big difference between the Paralyzed game condition by a monster and being paralyzed due to spinal injury. If someone was in a bad car crash in their teens and ran the risk of being confined to a wheelchair for life, they might have big issues with the latter but not the former. And not be comfortable with their character being restrained to a bed as it recalls memories of those months following the crash when they were uncertain if they'd be able to walk ever again

 

[Bedrockgames]

What the heck does it matter if they're "not the same thing"?!?! Pain is pain. Pain is helpful to alert you when it thinks you could be in danger. It doesn't matter if one is physical or mental. This is like saying "verbal abuse is different from physical abuse" in order to support an argument against passing a law against verbal abuse. So what?!?! That doesn't make it lesser, that doesn't make it not worth considering, and that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stop it. Your statement about them being different is both unnecessary and comes across as someone trying to underplay the effects of emotional/mental harm. You say that you're not trying to downplay mental illness/harm, but what you say and what you claim to say do not match up.

Because physical pain indicates physical damage is being done to the body. It matters a great deal. If you hit me in the face with a crow bar you could kill me or fracture my skull (I could lose my eye site, or have permanent brain damage). The pain from you saying something hurtful to me, or from you saying something that reminds me of a traumatic incident in my life, is real, but isn't the same. There is a reason why we treat someone shouting at another person in the street differently from someone kicking another person down the street. Both are bad. No one is denying that. They just aren't the same. And confusing them helps neither victim.

 

[Remathilis]

And this stuff is fine. If a friend wants to one thing, and another friend is like "I don't do that thing". That is reasonable, and you get to sort it out like adults. But the problem with things like these checklists, is it goes from someone raising a rare objection to something because its a serious issue for them, to, at least in my view, lowering that bar to where people just check off a box and it could mean anything from they just don't like it to it triggers serious psychological episodes (and we treat both of those things with the same level of gravity in terms of removing the thing that was checked).

What I keep getting from your objections is that you don't want to know what will bother a person before hand because that limits YOUR options at the table, so you will do what you want to do and if someone is uncomfortable, the onus is on them to tell EVERYONE they were uncomfortable and convince them to agree to remove the thing that makes them uncomfortable, DM included. Or they can find another game. People don't always openly share their trauma. We don't always know.

If I invited you and your wife to a game and started The Isle of Dread, she may not be comfortable with it and I wouldn't be the wiser. Would you want me to be knee deep into my "Naked and Afraid" scenario before learning she was uncomfortable? Do you want me to put it up to a vote with the rest of the group if they would rather keep playing the adventure? Would you care if I told her it's best then she didn't play anymore since everyone else is having fun? Would YOU keep coming if she didn't since you were still having fun? Or maybe I think she's just faking it because she prefers social intrigue games and wants to sabotage the adventure to get back to Waterdeep ASAP...

Hmmm, if only there were a set of tools that let us determine this before the first game...

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Because physical pain indicates physical damage is being done to the body. It matters a great deal. If you hit me in the face with a crow bar you could kill me or fracture my skull (I could lose my eye site, or have permanent brain damage). The pain from you saying something hurtful to me, or from you saying something that reminds me of a traumatic incident in my life, is real, but isn't the same. There is a reason why we treat someone shouting at another person in the street differently from someone kicking another person down the street. Both are bad. No one is denying that. They just aren't the same. And confusing them helps neither victim.

Emotional/Mental harm can deal just as much lasting damage as physical harm. Bruises heal, but it is often much harder to heal psychological harm on others than bruises or broken bones. Enough emotional/mental harm can drive someone to commit suicide, so both types of harm can be lethal. You are downplaying mental harm by saying "it's not physical". Mental harm often is much harder to recognize than physical harm, and physical harm often has more short-term effects than long-term ones. That doesn't mean that they aren't both worth considering or dealing with. They're just dealt with different ways.

If you are not trying to say "mental harm is less damaging than physical harm", what are you trying to say? Because that is exactly what it sounds like you are saying.

 

[Disgruntled Hobbit]

Because physical pain indicates physical damage is being done to the body. It matters a great deal. If you hit me in the face with a crow bar you could kill me or fracture my skull (I could lose my eye site, or have permanent brain damage). The pain from you saying something hurtful to me, or from you saying something that reminds me of a traumatic incident in my life, is real, but isn't the same. There is a reason why we treat someone shouting at another person in the street differently from someone kicking another person down the street. Both are bad. No one is denying that. They just aren't the same. And confusing them helps neither victim.

The physical pain from receiving daily wedgies in middle school that lifted me off the ground until my underware ripped healed within the week
The emotional pain from those years of bullying healed... so far never

All this is telling me is you have never been seriously victimized or emotionally injured and are speaking from that rare, privileged position and are unable to empathize with anyone who has experienced lasting pain
OR you're entirely unaware of your trauma and triggers and personal issues

 

[Bedrockgames]

You have said you have panic attacks. How would you feel if someone were to say "well, it seems like everyone has them these days, therefore you are just being 'faddish' so who cares?"

I am only engaging this point and won't respond to your response. But this is worth responding to: this is one of my chief concerns. People are finding their very real psychological health issues are being dismissed because people who clearly don't have them (I can't prove it that they don't but it is becoming very obvious to everyone) are claiming to have them over everything under the sun. And that is going to ultimately harm people have are really having panic attacks. Again, none of what I am saying is about dismissing people having real mental health issues and symptoms. And nothing I am saying is about accusing someone of lying when they tell you they are having symptoms. I am saying we are in danger of watering down what it means to have them, and that people will take them less seriously as a result.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Emotional/Mental harm can deal just as much lasting damage as physical harm. Bruises heal, but it is often much harder to heal psychological harm on others than bruises or broken bones. Enough emotional/mental harm can drive someone to commit suicide, so both types of harm can be lethal. You are downplaying mental harm by saying "it's not physical". Mental harm often is much harder to recognize than physical harm, and physical harm often has more short-term effects than long-term ones. That doesn't mean that they aren't both worth considering or dealing with. They're just dealt with different ways.

I never said it couldn't. In fact in my first example of physical pain and harm, I said it could leave psychological scars. And when I talked about emotional harm I said it could lead to suicide and death. The difference is, I knife through the heart directly leads to death, regardless of what the victim does. Psychological harm is not going to do kill you directly (it may lead to a person behaving in a way where they become a danger to themselves, they may even commit suicide, but that is different from someone being stabbed through the chest: I am not even saying it can be less pressing, just different). Nothing that I am saying is meant to mean that psychological harm shouldn't be taken seriously. I am taking mental illness very seriously here. What I am stating is mental harm is distinct from physical harm. Blurring the line between the two, both serious things, doesn't help a victim of emotional trauma, and it doesn't help a victim of a gunshot wound. They are different and require very different responses and treatments. And generally speaking, physical harm, is the one that creates more pressing need for an immediate response (if there is a person in my street with a gun, that is very different in terms of immediate safety concerns than if there is something in the street that sets of my PTSD: both are bad and potentially dangerous, but we understand how the madman with the gun is a much different situation.

 

[Bedrockgames]

All this is telling me is you have never been seriously victimized or emotionally injured and are speaking from that rare, privileged position and are unable to empathize with anyone who has experienced lasting pain
OR you're entirely unaware of your trauma and triggers and personal issues

You are making assumptions. I can tell you your assumptions are wrong.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The physical pain from receiving daily wedgies in middle school that lifted me off the ground until my underware ripped healed within the week
The emotional pain from those years of bullying healed... so far never

So then you would agree with me physical and emotional harm are different? I think this captures one of the major difference. We tend to think of physical harm being more immediately pressing and concerning, but like you said generally it heals (I happen to have physical wounds that will never heal, but those are not the norm). Whereas psychological wounds last potentially your whole life (and psychological wounds can be caused by physical abuse). I am not discounting the emotional pain. I am saying emotional pain and physical pain are different. We recognize that for a reason. When you talk about physical safety people tend to think of things like bridges falling, and people being killed in accidents. So when you port that language into RPGs to talk about emotional safety, it is going to be a little confusing I think (and it kind of capitalizes on the power of the word 'safety' to sell the idea of the tools IMO).

 

[Disgruntled Hobbit]

You are making assumptions. I can tell you your assumptions are wrong.

Fair. But would you want your issues and pain brought up at the table?
If you began to feel uncomfortable and stopped having fun, would you want the DM to ignore you? Or to stop/ cut away?


It doesn't even really need to be trauma. This is just basic etiquette

As an example, some players are superstitious about their dice. (Which I think everyone agrees is stupid but many of us still do.)
But if a player asked you not to touch their dice because if anyone but them touches their dice it jinxes their rolls, would you still touch their dice?

And if you're willing to respect and accommodate someone for something is ridiculous as dice luck, why the flip would you not respect them for not wanting to have their character raped? Or tortured? Or having a child murdered on camera? Or include Phase Spiders when they're arachnophobic?