D&D 5E Revisiting RAW Darkness Spell

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Right, but how can it be dark without also making it equally difficult to see past? How can it be easier to see something behind the bubble than it is to see something in the bubble?
Because she's standing in the light. I'd imagine her to still be shadowed by the darkness between you and her, but not as much as he is, in the spell's area. Because MAGIC.

But it is not dark if you can see what's behind! The light is coming through! And the bubble is 30 feet across, whereas you described an individual shadow around the guy, if it was any bigger, it would block the LoS to the woman and the forest behind the shadow as well.
Okay, I'm done. Like someone said, this is just going in circles. I assume everyone is doing their best to communicate and failing. I honestly don't think anyone is trolling, but it's definitely starting to get frustrating.

You should keep imagining it as an absolutely black sphere that blocks all light and I'll imagine it as a sphere of darkness that won't get any brighter if you hold a torch up to it, but that you can still see through, because I don't have a problem with that, and you do. And that's fine. It's honestly not that different - one is a absolutely blackest black sphere and the other is less opaque - that is all. If you can't imagine that, I don't know what more I can tell you.

(And for the record I assumed that it was obvious that I meant the darkness effect to cover the entire area that the spell creates and not just him.)
 

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Okay, I'm done. Like someone said, this is just going in circles. I assume everyone is doing their best to communicate and failing. I honestly don't think anyone is trolling, but it's definitely starting to get frustrating.

You should keep imagining it as an absolutely black sphere that blocks all light and I'll imagine it as a sphere of darkness that won't get any brighter if you hold a torch up to it, but that you can still see through, because I don't have a problem with that, and you do. And that's fine. It's honestly not that different - one is a absolutely blackest black sphere and the other is less opaque - that is all. If you can't imagine that, I don't know what more I can tell you.
Like I said earlier, I can imagine that just fine. However, unlike you claim it just logically obscures things behind it the same way than things inside of it and it not doing so literally is not visual that can logically exist, without the visible silhouettes situation.

Also, as for failing to communicate, this game literally relies on GM telling players what their characters can see, so could that in 27 pages the people in 'see though darkness camp' haven't managed to communicate the visuals of the situation understandably perhaps be an indication that your description might not be functional or coherent?
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Like I said earlier, I can imagine that just fine. However, unlike you claim it just logically obscures things behind it the same way than things inside of it and it not doing so literally is not visual that can logically exist, without the visible silhouettes situation.

Also, as for failing to communicate, this game literally relies on GM telling players what their characters can see, so could that in 27 pages the people in 'see though darkness camp' haven't managed to communicate the visuals of the situation understandably perhaps be an indication that your description might not be functional or coherent?
Well, I'm pretty sure the way we see this communication gaffe, and I don't speak for us all, is that "we've" communicated it just fine (keep in mind, I for one was on the other "side" at the start of this), but some people have chosen to continue to argue that it's impossible to understand. Keep in mind that I don't think that anyone is doing this on purpose - but I've never had trouble understanding or imagining it since it was first explained in this very thread. I don't agree that the description is at all difficult to understand - I grasped it immediately.

It really feels like you just keep screaming "but it doesn't make sense" when it does. (Again, I don't think that you mean to do this - it's just typical internet communication SNAFU.)

In addition, I mentioned it to my players - we've always played with the opaque sphere before - and everyone immediately understood and liked it better that way.

So... while I'm sure you feel that we've not "managed to communicate the visuals of the situation understandably"... are you sure it's not just you that's failed to grasp it?
 

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
I am firmly in the inky, impenetrable darkness spell camp. The spell could be more clear in its description of the effect, but I think the intent is obvious.

For those who say it is not that, what purpose does the spell serve in general terms within the game? A buff? Debuff? Offensive? Defensive? Within the fiction, what was the goal of the wizard who created the darkness spell?

Why this gets all wonky is it creates an area of something (darkness) that is not a thing in the real world. Darkness is the absence of visible light, not a thing unto itself.

We see things by receiving light that is emitted by or reflected off an object. Basically there are two ways that someone's vision would not see a target: 1) A barrier prevents some or all of the light from the object from reaching the viewer's eyes (obscurement), or 2) Not enough light is being emitted by or reflected off the object to register in the viewer's eyes (darkness). The 5e rules for Obscurement (big o) are simple and straightforward, and work fine for obscurement (small o), IMO, but applying the Obscurement rules to natural darkness does not always work.

I think of the darkness spell as a sphere of "anti-light;" no visible light can exist within its confines, so it cannot be seen out of, into, or through, except by a higher-level light spell (or an effect like Devil's Sight that specifies it sees through magical darkness). A higher-level light spell works as it simply overpowers the darkness spell, and things like Devil's Sight work because they use a wavelength other than visible light.

IMO, darkness is mainly a multi-purpose battlefield control spell. It can be a handy to effectively blind a number of opponents at once for a short time for either offensive or defensive uses. If the caster has Devil's Sight or similar, they magnify the offensive and defensive utility of darkness.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I am firmly in the inky, impenetrable darkness spell camp. The spell could be more clear in its description of the effect, but I think the intent is obvious.
What does the spell say that makes you think the intent is obvious?

For those who say it is not that, what purpose does the spell serve in general terms within the game? A buff? Debuff? Offensive? Defensive? Within the fiction, what was the goal of the wizard who created the darkness spell?
Considering that the inkblot interpretation leads it to being just slightly more than absolutely useless (outside of the Devil's Sight combo) then I'm not sure asking what purpose it should serve in game is really a relative strength of your position.

With the inkblot interpretation all it does is prevent advantage and disadvantage for everyone involved - and make some spells unable to target though that is a bit of a double edged sword.

Why this gets all wonky is it creates an area of something (darkness) that is not a thing in the real world. Darkness is the absence of visible light, not a thing unto itself.
I can agree with that. - I would add the caveat that darkness in the real world isn't the complete absence of visible light.


We see things by receiving light that is emitted by or reflected off an object. Basically there are two ways that someone's vision would not see a target: 1) A barrier prevents some or all of the light from the object from reaching the viewer's eyes (obscurement), or 2) Not enough light is being emitted by or reflected off the object to register in the viewer's eyes (darkness). The 5e rules for Obscurement (big o) are simple and straightforward, and work fine for obscurement (small o), IMO, but applying the Obscurement rules to natural darkness does not always work.
Sure. Good thing we have DM's to override the rules. But it does seem like you agree that RAW even has natural darkness behave quite wonky.

IMO, darkness is mainly a multi-purpose battlefield control spell. It can be a handy to effectively blind a number of opponents at once for a short time for either offensive or defensive uses. If the caster has Devil's Sight or similar, they magnify the offensive and defensive utility of darkness.
It doesn't actually do that with your interpretation. There's no offensive or defensive use of the spell. It makes them blind to you and you just as blind to them.
 

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
I can agree with that. - I would add the caveat that darkness in the real world isn't the complete absence of visible light.
Darkness is a spectrum (pardon the pun). True 100% darkness is the total absence of visible light and is very rare outside of a completely sealed area (or a darkness spell).

Sure. Good thing we have DM's to override the rules. But it does seem like you agree that RAW even has natural darkness behave quite wonky.
Only by misapplying the rules for physical obscurement to a transparent area does it get wonky.

It doesn't actually do that with your interpretation. There's no offensive or defensive use of the spell. It makes them blind to you and you just as blind to them.
Blocking line of sight is a big help (moreso for defensive uses, I admit), even without Devil's Sight. Darkness over opponents can allow you to shoot area of effect spell without giving away your position, and eliminates the risk of counterspelling. If the foes have been hitting you with spells that require seeing the target, darkness can shut that down for a round or two. Want to have the enemy move to another part of the battlefield/more favorable terrain for you? Darkness can help encourage them to move. Need to run away or retreat? Darkness might provide the cover you need. Cast darkness on a ball and roll it, and then move along behind it to provide mobile cover as you advance forward (either to a new hard cover, or if it rolls over and beyond your foes, you can close the distance limiting their ranged attacks against you). Even if you just need a round or two to regroup/re-position your party, darkness might be a way.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Darkness is a spectrum (pardon the pun). True 100% darkness is the total absence of visible light and is very rare outside of a completely sealed area (or a darkness spell).
Exactly!

Only by misapplying the rules for physical obscurement to a transparent area does it get wonky.
What exactly is being misapplied? The rules treat darkness as an area of heavy obscurement.

Blocking line of sight is a big help (moreso for defensive uses, I admit), even without Devil's Sight.
When the darkness that is blocking line of site is so limited on radius that it can be moved through or around in 1 turn - is it actually effective at blocking line of sight?


Darkness over opponents can allow you to shoot area of effect spell without giving away your position,
That's not true. In 5e RAW combat, unless you are hidden (unseen and unheard) then the enemy knows your position.

I get the feeling that your non-RAW rulings are biasing your opinion.

and eliminates the risk of counterspelling.
Sure. though that also means you can't counterspell them.

If the foes have been hitting you with spells that require seeing the target, darkness can shut that down for a round or two.
Sure. But it also shuts down the ability to hit them with spells that require seeing the target.

That's a use yes, but it's a pretty niche use. My argument isn't that there is no circumstances darkness is useful when treating it as inkblot, it's that there's so few benefits and the benefits it does have come up very rarely.

Want to have the enemy move to another part of the battlefield/more favorable terrain for you? Darkness can help encourage them to move.
It will only do that to casters that need to target someone they can see. Every other combatant just stands in it and fights anyways, because it doesn't have any effect on what they are doing...

Need to run away or retreat? Darkness might provide the cover you need. Cast darkness on a ball and roll it, and then move along behind it to provide mobile cover as you advance forward (either to a new hard cover, or if it rolls over and beyond your foes, you can close the distance limiting their ranged attacks against you).
Darkness provides obscurement not cover. It also doesn't make you automatically succeed on stealth or keep the enemies from reacting to the ball of darkness coming at them.

This goes back again to the argument of it being next to useless and not useless entirely. You seem to be arguing that there's some small bit of use that can be found for it. And my response is: So what? Before we even started discussing I already conceded there were some small bits of 'use' for it, so arguing that there are some small bits of 'use' for it isn't actually a counterpoint to my position...

Even if you just need a round or two to regroup/re-position your party, darkness might be a way.
It doesn't keep them from attacking you normally like they already are...
 


Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
What does the spell say that makes you think the intent is obvious?

For my part, the fact that the spell says that you can't see through it, even if you have darkvision, suggests the intent is that it is opaque, because that's what opaque means. I realize you interpret that line differently (even if I'm still unsure exactly how you're interpreting it), so I know you don't find this evidence convincing. I also acknowledge that the wording of that sentence could have been clearer, but the alternative interpretation (i.e. "only creatures with darkvision can't see through the darkness" instead of "even creatures with darkvision can't see through the area") is silly enough to be disfavored.

But between that line in the spell, and the fact that the spell description is complete under the opaque interpretation and incomplete under the transparent interpretation (see, e.g., most of this thread debating how to implement the transparent version at the table while giving effect to both the obscurement rules and the visual description of the spell) I think there's very strong evidence that the opaque interpretation was intended. Strong enough that I feel the word "obvious" would have been warranted were it not for the evident debate in this and other threads.

Considering that the inkblot interpretation leads it to being just slightly more than absolutely useless (outside of the Devil's Sight combo) then I'm not sure asking what purpose it should serve in game is really a relative strength of your position.

With the inkblot interpretation all it does is prevent advantage and disadvantage for everyone involved - and make some spells unable to target though that is a bit of a double edged sword.
It prevents those inside from seeing the battlefield, greatly impairing their situational awareness. They'll only be aware of the locations of opponents that the DM determines to be within hearing range. Unless they have a perfect visual memory, they won't necessarily remember where walls and cover are, potentially wasting actions by shooting at targets they can hear but who may or may not currently be exposed, or spending movement unwisely. Readied actions become much harder as those in the sphere can't rely on visual triggers. They also won't necessarily know what actions are being taken by those outside the sphere, limiting their ability to focus fire on wounded enemies or realize that wounded allies need help.

Of course the same will be true for those outside the darkness having their situational awareness impeded with regards to what is going on inside the darkness. That favors the caster of the darkness, who can decide on the fly whether to cast it on allies or enemies depending on whether the change in situational awareness would be a relative benefit or drawback to those in the darkness under the current situation on the battlefield.

How much these factors actually affect play will, of course depend highly on the types of encounters run at a particular table. Large and/or noisy encounters where the battlefield is larger than the current effective range for hearing opponents' locations make the Darkness spell more valuable. Dynamic combat styles where the PCs and opponents are constantly moving between full cover rather than standing still and slugging it out will also make Darkness more useful, as target selection becomes more important in a dynamic fight.

The effectiveness of Darkness also depends on the medium in which the game is being run. Tabletop miniatures with a hand drawn or printed map (or a VTT without dynamic lighting) make Darkness less useful, as the players can still keep their situational awareness of the layout and events of the battlefield even when their characters are blind. With theatre of the mind (or VTTs with dynamic lighting) darkness can impair the players just as much as the characters, making the spell more useful in practice, as players will no longer need to try to RP the lack of situational awareness.

The effectiveness of the spell also depends on play style. If characters and monsters consistently make tactical choices based on RP considerations, Darkness can be more valuable that it otherwise would be, as targets who suddenly lose their situational awareness may be RP'd as disoriented or panicked.

There's no offensive or defensive use of the spell. It makes them blind to you and you just as blind to them.
Loss of situational awareness has immense offensive and defensive applications at many tables. As discussed above, it's possible that between encounter style, game medium, and playstyle, that opaque darkness might have limited utility at a particular table, but that doesn't impede the tactical value of the spell at other tables.

When the darkness that is blocking line of site is so limited on radius that it can be moved through or around in 1 turn - is it actually effective at blocking line of sight?
Due to the loss of situational awareness, targets trying to escape the darkness may move slowly or non-optimally towards the perimeter (e.g. feeling their way along a wall rather than risk running headlong into an obstruction). Additionally, making the targets move out of the darkness to keep their situational awareness may be the point of a particular casting, by limiting the enemy's ability to make use of advantageous terrain.

That's not true. In 5e RAW combat, unless you are hidden (unseen and unheard) then the enemy knows your position.
Only within effective hearing range, and that varies a lot from table to table. At tables with DMs who take into account ambient noise when determining the effective range at which creatures can be located by sound, that range can easily be short enough not to include the entire encounter.
The same purpose it served back in 3.5 e and the Cleric version served in AD&D 1e.
Also, nobody argued it was impossible to imagine back then.
Because the 3.5 spell was explicit about both what it looked like and the mechanical effects, so there wasn't anything to discuss. (Also, in my experience, no one actually used the spell, opting instead for the opaque variant from one of the supplements.) 5e Darkness under the transparent interpretation has descriptive and mechanical holes the DM needs to fill, hence the discussion in this thread about how to do so.
 

For my part, the fact that the spell says that you can't see through it
Yes, but page 183 of the PHB says normal darkness can't be seen through as well. Does it make you believe normal darkness should be opaque too? The only difference here is that the spell cannot be negated by Darkvision.
Honestly, "it's hard to imagine" isn't a very compelling argument.
 

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