D&D General [+] Ravenloft, horror, & safety tools...

[Umbran]

• The first type is the type they were built for that several people are strongly advocating for in a way that seems to suggest that sort of blacklist/whitelist checklist is the only valid way given the pushback and nobad directed at other approaches like the current discussion on sometimes needing more than just saying X is a limit.

Mod Note:
If you want to continue in this discussion, you will leave the snark behind.

 

[tetrasodium]

To use that poster's parlance, it's the difference between a need and a want. The player's line is a need, that poster's "line" is a want. Explicitly so.

It reads far more as the poster would misuse the safety tools to punish players for using them.

I don't think that's a fair assessment and that sort of disparaging comment towards a poster trying to talk about an important part of consent tools actively pushes people away from trying to use them in a responsible manner.
Consent tools like soft limits, hard limits safe words, x cards , lines, veils, consent forms and so on need to be treated with extreme respect for their purpose akin to a fire alarm or similar. Using the fire alarm analogy, there are many many valid reasons to pull a fire alarm that don't involve a fire & some of them even have legal backing. I found those in seconds of googling & from the looks of it could continue for quite some time.

Discussions about when it's ok or not to use a given safety tool or practice for reasons other than the intended one & how to responsibly handle disagreements over that believed or even known misuse are just as important if not more important as the tools themselves. People need to feel they can safely discuss those topics without getting shutdown by no bad or painted in a bad light for bringing it up. That's important because nobody can help someone that wants to be responsible but isn't sure how if they are scared to ask.

 

[FrozenNorth]

It is perhaps more accurate to say that they won't work... for telling you if a specific pre-written adventure will work out well.

You can also use them if you are proposing multiple campaigns to your players, so that they don’t choose for instance, an adventure that has multiple instances of body horror if that sort of thing squicks them out.

 

[Disgruntled Hobbit]

A mate recently introduced me to the terms "ask vs guess culture" which seems relevant
From what I understand, this is people who will ask and expect a "yes" or a "no" vs people who will infer and hope for a "yes" but leave things open so someone doesn't have to give a "no"

Like when you need a ride somewhere. And Asker will simply say "yo, can I get a ride downtown?" while a guesser will comment "I need to go downtown. Not looking forward to taking the bus" while hoping the person will offer a ride

Something to be aware of regarding lines 'n' veils
Some gamers might make it apparent that they don't want something in their games. Others might just infer and hope you take the hint
Which is a good argument for why you need to get it in writing

 

[overgeeked]

A mate recently introduced me to the terms "ask vs guess culture" which seems relevant
From what I understand, this is people who will ask and expect a "yes" or a "no" vs people who will infer and hope for a "yes" but leave things open so someone doesn't have to give a "no"

Like when you need a ride somewhere. And Asker will simply say "yo, can I get a ride downtown?" while a guesser will comment "I need to go downtown. Not looking forward to taking the bus" while hoping the person will offer a ride

Something to be aware of regarding lines 'n' veils
Some gamers might make it apparent that they don't want something in their games. Others might just infer and hope you take the hint
Which is a good argument for why you need to get it in writing

It seems like it would be asking for trouble if you tried to infer anything about lines and veils. How would the X-card work in that kind of setup?

 

[Disgruntled Hobbit]

It seems like it would be asking for trouble if you tried to infer anything about lines and veils. How would the X-card work in that kind of setup?

Good question

Speaking as an uber-introvert. I hate asking for things. I hate making people say "no" when I can leave things open and have them offer (or not) I hate putting people out
I'd be hesitant to tap the x-card and inconvenience anyone, even if I was uncomfortable. Even if I suspected everyone would stop for me. Because I'd rather be uncomfortable than force anyone else to stop having fun

For me, having lines and veils established in advance would work better than an X-card. Because I'm going to feel confrontational tapping the card. I'd prefer the DM not "going there" in advance

 

[MGibster]

For me, having lines and veils established in advance would work better than an X-card. Because I'm going to feel confrontational tapping the card. I'd prefer the DM not "going there" in advance

I much prefer establishing the boundaries ahead of time rather than relying on the X-Card system. As a player it means I'm not placed in a position where I feel as though I'm interrupting everyone's fun by tapping the card. As a DM, I don't have to worry whether or not today will be the day someone taps the card.

 

[tetrasodium]

Good question

Speaking as an uber-introvert. I hate asking for things. I hate making people say "no" when I can leave things open and have them offer (or not) I hate putting people out
I'd be hesitant to tap the x-card and inconvenience anyone, even if I was uncomfortable. Even if I suspected everyone would stop for me. Because I'd rather be uncomfortable than force anyone else to stop having fun

For me, having lines and veils established in advance would work better than an X-card. Because I'm going to feel confrontational tapping the card. I'd prefer the DM not "going there" in advance

Your bringing up two topics here that blend together a bit but deserve their own discussion The tendency towards agreeableness shoving your own needs aside & the x-card pressure. That agreeableness is a perfect example of why your GM or your player needs to engage in discussion with you or any other player/gm to sketch out what you are asking for them to (not) do before they can give informed consent to (not) doing it. That discussion also allows you the chance to demonstrate that you acknowledge& understand the risks that you are agreeing to.

In medicine & other communities with a strong culture of consent that process is known as informed consent. Informed consent can't happen if the person consenting is not able to demonstrate that they understand the risks & responsibilities well enough for other involved parties to give their own consent to your wants & needs through discussion The tools need to accept that humans aren't always logical & design themselves towards proactively avoiding this kind of snag .



wrt your "I'm going to feel confrontational tapping the card", You might justifiably be hesitant to stand up, reach over the table, & feel the way you are certain everyone's eyes are drilling into you* while you touch the x card instead of just fixing that one mini not quite centered in the square beside it . You are going to have a much easier time jumping in & saying "I want to look out the window to see if I see anyone hears this carnage". You could fix that mini & it would be really easy to point all those eyes at the mini instead of you by fixing it so you can sit back down.

When things like status checks & safewords for communicating enjoyment & comfort levels are normalized it's a much lower bar than feeling all of those eyes for you to just say something like "I want to look out the window to see if I see anyone hears this yellow carnage" and let everyone know that you are asking them to either not dial this up a notch or change things up perhaps like this by mentioning people maybe hearing it.


*it doesn't matter what everyone else is doing for someone to feel confrontational taking the first step & it's a pretty well documented behavioral thing.

 

[overgeeked]

I much prefer establishing the boundaries ahead of time rather than relying on the X-Card system. As a player it means I'm not placed in a position where I feel as though I'm interrupting everyone's fun by tapping the card. As a DM, I don't have to worry whether or not today will be the day someone taps the card.

I agree. I'd rather it be handled pre-game as much as possible. But things will inevitably come up in game that need to be handled. I think using both is a good idea. Instead of the X-card there's another in-game safety tool, script change. It includes things like pause, rewind, fast forward, etc to facilitate discussion and to skip passed problematic things in game. Though I'm not sure it's any more useful for someone who's hyper-non-confrontational.

 

[overgeeked]

Shifting away from safety tools to horror gaming resources, here are two blog posts that offer a lot of good advice. There are several links therein to other, related, posts, though I’m not sure of their value as I haven’t read them.

Discomfort, Fear, Terror, and Vast Cosmic Horror, on a dime a day

A blog I have been reading regularly since I started using WordPress (The Black Campbell), mentioned in passing the difficulty of running horror games and that, plus listening to some podcasts of a…

castingshadowsblog.com

Come Strange Eons, even Cthulhu Campaigns may last

There are a lot of factors working against the Keeper who hopes to have a long-term campaign. Classic scenarios and printed campaigns only serve to highlight this by clearly delineating a set perio…

castingshadowsblog.com