D&D 5E Why are 5E Giants Huge size?

[Upper_Krust]

I agree, I just don't think we agree on the logic.

Lol, probably true amigo!

Maybe I'm going crazy in my old age here. After a few months staring at this stuff I might arrive at the same conclusions as you.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I disagree and at this point we should agree to disagree. I've made my case, you have made yours. You don't find my case compelling and I don't find yours convincing either. I disagree with your logic, you disagree with mine. No more to be said at this point.

I think RAW you are closer to the official rules adhering to the secondary modifiers.

From my perspective the secondary modifiers look like extra work that over inflates the monster's Challenge Rating meaning that when they get fought they are almost always a letdown.

If the choice was:

A. Do I want epic monsters to feel weak

or

B. Do I want epic monsters to feel tough

Then I know how I want my epic monsters.

I still look forward to whatever your working on and wish you good luck!

Thanks buddy. Taking longer than I expected, due to my constant tinkering to get stuff right. Should be a fun book when its done though.

 

[dave2008]

A. Do I want epic monsters to feel weak

or

B. Do I want epic monsters to feel tough

Then I know how I want my epic monsters.

I agree with you. I eventually decided that it was my preference to do that by shifting my thinking about what CR means and having higher CR monsters for truly epic entities. So, in my mind a CR 20 monster is a solo boss monster for a lvl 13 or so group. It is high level, but really "epic." Epic monsters don't start until probably CR 27+. Unfortunately, WotC has published very few monsters of that caliber.

OH, I forgot one thing - have you checked out the Mythic Monsters from Theros? They are another way to make epic monsters with lower CR ratings (getting a lot more HP for the same CR). I really like the design space of Mythic Monsters and have made simplified versions I call "elite" monsters.

Thanks buddy. Taking longer than I expected, due to my constant tinkering to get stuff right. Should be a fun book when its done though.

It always does - good luck!

 

[rmcoen]

(I admit, I skipped 8 pages of comments - so apologies if someone mentioned this already)

Wrt "Giants should be more than an extra-large bag of HP and two melee strikes"... there are versions of giants in DNDBeyond - I think from Rime of the Frost Maiden? - that have more interesting moves. The Hill giant, for example, has a "Squash" move where he basically sits on the target ("grappling" it until he stands back up). But I like the point that was made, giants should be making AOE attacks with their swipes, not "Greatclub, +8, one target". Personally, I have tweaked them like the new variant ogres I found (like the Ogre Chain Brute), with some extra moves and special actions. Same power level, just more options and more interesting options.

Wrt "What size should giants be"... I think giants are "Huge tall, and Large wide/long", like a horse is "Medium tall/wide, and Large long". So a Giant fits in a 10' wide area, but has to limbo his 15' tall frame to get through the castle's gate.


In my current campaign, the 4th level heroes were ambushed by a stone giant high in the hills (CR 7), and wisely fled. They then scouted out "why are the ogres so organized" and found a pair of hill giants and a dozen ogres in a mountainside camp... and wisely fled (after scouting and learning about an ogre mage / oni that was giving orders from elsewhere). Now that they are level 5, they are thinking about going back and getting some revenge on the solo stone giant, and then a complicated assault on the hill giant camp.

So I'm a little confused about the "a campaign will only see 1 or 2 giants" comments. It depends on the campaign, and the players' actions. If players decide to leave those giants alone and go the other way, they may never see another giant; if they stay in those mountains, they will face many giants.

 

[Upper_Krust]

In my current campaign, the 4th level heroes were ambushed by a stone giant high in the hills (CR 7), and wisely fled. They then scouted out "why are the ogres so organized" and found a pair of hill giants and a dozen ogres in a mountainside camp... and wisely fled (after scouting and learning about an ogre mage / oni that was giving orders from elsewhere). Now that they are level 5, they are thinking about going back and getting some revenge on the solo stone giant, and then a complicated assault on the hill giant camp.

So I'm a little confused about the "a campaign will only see 1 or 2 giants" comments. It depends on the campaign, and the players' actions. If players decide to leave those giants alone and go the other way, they may never see another giant; if they stay in those mountains, they will face many giants.

The observation was primarily directed at the lethality of Fire Giants and why you can't really use that many in a single encounter.

If we take your example then, in a fair fight, 2 Hill Giants and 12 Ogres are a deadly threat for a party notably above 5th-level. Of course the party can always 'divide and conquer' and all sorts of tactical options. But that defeats the purpose of the point in that "too many giants can easily turn your PC's into broth".

 

[rmcoen]

To be fair, I don't expect the PCs to survive if they charge headfirst into that meat grinder (to keep the food analogies). Just in fleeing, they managed to take out 4 of the ogres (and 8 of their goblin allies that I didn't even mention) in two separate encounters -- and the fighter got a light ballista hole through his armor (and his gut), lowering it 1 AC (the ogre bolter called it a "crossbow"), and the cleric suffered some cracked ribs from an "accidental critical" from a giant-hurled rock from upslope (it was a "miss", from an artillery point-of-view, scattered, happened to randomly strike the cleric's square). They got away, though, and decided to go get help from a nearby dwarven outpost... only to find it under attack from some goblins and hobgoblins! (Who are wondering, by the way, why they aren't receiving any ogre or giant reinforcements...)

 

[Upper_Krust]

To be fair, I don't expect the PCs to survive if they charge headfirst into that meat grinder (to keep the food analogies). Just in fleeing, they managed to take out 4 of the ogres (and 8 of their goblin allies that I didn't even mention) in two separate encounters -- and the fighter got a light ballista hole through his armor (and his gut), lowering it 1 AC (the ogre bolter called it a "crossbow"), and the cleric suffered some cracked ribs from an "accidental critical" from a giant-hurled rock from upslope (it was a "miss", from an artillery point-of-view, scattered, happened to randomly strike the cleric's square). They got away, though, and decided to go get help from a nearby dwarven outpost... only to find it under attack from some goblins and hobgoblins! (Who are wondering, by the way, why they aren't receiving any ogre or giant reinforcements...)

I think you are definitely doing the right thing. PCs can get complacent if encounters are presented to them in easy-to-manage bite-size chunks. Only thing to be wary of is that they are savvy enough to know giants pack a very hefty wallop and to be careful. Sounds like they are having a great time though. Keep up the good work.

 

[Nefermandias]

(I admit, I skipped 8 pages of comments - so apologies if someone mentioned this already)

Wrt "Giants should be more than an extra-large bag of HP and two melee strikes"... there are versions of giants in DNDBeyond - I think from Rime of the Frost Maiden? - that have more interesting moves. The Hill giant, for example, has a "Squash" move where he basically sits on the target ("grappling" it until he stands back up). But I like the point that was made, giants should be making AOE attacks with their swipes, not "Greatclub, +8, one target". Personally, I have tweaked them like the new variant ogres I found (like the Ogre Chain Brute), with some extra moves and special actions. Same power level, just more options and more interesting options.

Wrt "What size should giants be"... I think giants are "Huge tall, and Large wide/long", like a horse is "Medium tall/wide, and Large long". So a Giant fits in a 10' wide area, but has to limbo his 15' tall frame to get through the castle's gate.


In my current campaign, the 4th level heroes were ambushed by a stone giant high in the hills (CR 7), and wisely fled. They then scouted out "why are the ogres so organized" and found a pair of hill giants and a dozen ogres in a mountainside camp... and wisely fled (after scouting and learning about an ogre mage / oni that was giving orders from elsewhere). Now that they are level 5, they are thinking about going back and getting some revenge on the solo stone giant, and then a complicated assault on the hill giant camp.

So I'm a little confused about the "a campaign will only see 1 or 2 giants" comments. It depends on the campaign, and the players' actions. If players decide to leave those giants alone and go the other way, they may never see another giant; if they stay in those mountains, they will face many giants.

These special moves are from Strom King's Thunder.
Also, the inclusion of those options in the module makes me think WoTC is aware of the bland monster design they've done with 5e.