D&D 5E [+] On Building 5e Classes

[cbwjm]

No idea what the points based system is but I typically have a basic layout based on whether it is non-caster, half-caster, or full-caster.

Level	Martial	Half-Caster	Full-Caster
1	Class Defining Abilities	Class Defining Abilities	Class Defining Abilities
2	Class/Subclass	Class/Subclass	Class/Subclass
3	Class/Subclass	Class/Subclass	Class/Subclass
4	ASI	ASI	ASI
5	Combat Boost	Combat Boost	-
6	Subclass	Subclass	Subclass
7	Class	Class	-
8	ASI	ASI	ASI
9	Class	-	-
10	Subclass	Subclass	Subclass
11	Combat Boost	Combat Boost	-
12	ASI	ASI	ASI

Class Defining Abilities. This could be a subclass (especially if more weight is on the subclass) or general class abilities. I often place the subclass at 1st level as I like the subclass abilities to be available from the start.
Class/Subclass. Sometimes I will have the next subclass ability available at 2nd or 3rd level. If no subclass then it will be a general class ability like second wind, action surge, or arcane recovery.
Class. This is where the overall class grants an ability.
Subclass. With rare exceptions, these are the levels that I will grant a subclass ability. Normally only changes if I'm using something like paladin as the basis for a class like Death Knight which gains subclass abilities at 7th and an aura at 6th.

Ribbons/Minor Abilities. For the half-caster and full-caster, they have levels where they gain an additional spell level. I will typically not grant them additional abilities unless it is a ribbon or an ability with limited utility (such as turn undead, great when you fight them, but the upgrade of the turn ability isn't super strong).

Using this structure, I find I can throw together the basics of a class fairly quickly.
Combat Boost. At 5th level this is probably Extra Attack. At 11th it is something like improved smite or a defensive bonus.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

That’s probably fair. However, whate does that put it in a “major, moderate, minor, ribbon” categorization? Moderate, alongside extra attack?

I'd say half-casting is moderate alongside extra attack in the combat pillar, but it is also moderate in the social and exploration pillars as well, which extra attack isn't.

Sneak attack is a nova, it’s just situational (you nova on a crit, and should have advantage pretty often) rather than controlled by a limited resource.

I think that we're using "nova" differently. To me, nova means a source of additional damage that you can call upon to do additional damage above your baseline when you really need it.
So Divine Smite is nova, as is action surge and BM SD, and primary spellcasting. I would not consider sneak attack nova because it is (generally) baseline damage and extra burst from it (crits and most off-turn attacks) are random, and cannot be called on when you really need it.

How are you using nova to mean?

For sure, although it’s worth noting that satisfying play doesn’t quite translate with direct spell point math. IIRC the 4elements monk costs its spells using direct spell point to slot conversion, and nearly everyone agrees that it runs out way too fast for what you get out of using the disciplines, while other subclasses that instead convert at 1ki/spell level are generally considered satisfying and fun.

That is the difference between using a formula based on existing costs, and eyeballing it.
By the numbers breakdown, 4E Monks are just half-casters like Paladins and Rangers. The issue is partly the issue of most adventuring days don't fit the shrt rests that balance would require.
However it is mostly that the 4E Monk fantasy (particularly Avatar-style benders) is almost that of a primary caster, and its "spell list" generally matches that.
But a half-caster cannot operate as a full caster, particularly if it is being further shorted by lack of short rests.
Rangers and Paladins use mostly buff and utility spells: - They can't operate as offensive casters either.
If there was a monk class with the same Ki levels and costs as the 4E monk, but its spells were buffs and utility like Hex, Shield of Faith, Bless etc, that monk would probably be fine. (Or at least better than the 4E).

Class features that synergise well are better than ones that don't even if they add up to the same "feature budget".

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'd say half-casting is moderate alongside extra attack in the combat pillar, but it is also moderate in the social and exploration pillars as well, which extra attack isn't.

I think that we're using "nova" differently. To me, nova means a source of additional damage that you can call upon to do additional damage above your baseline when you really need it.
So Divine Smite is nova, as is action surge and BM SD, and primary spellcasting. I would not consider sneak attack nova because it is (generally) baseline damage and extra burst from it (crits and most off-turn attacks) are random, and cannot be called on when you really need it.

How are you using nova to mean?

It’s a significant damage spike. Rogues benefit more than anyone else from reaction attacks, and IME have advantage for most attacks. That means they get crits more often, and double their per/round damage frequently via reaction attacks.

I don’t see how controlling when it happens is relevant to whether it’s a nova.

That is the difference between using a formula based on existing costs, and eyeballing it.
By the numbers breakdown, 4E Monks are just half-casters like Paladins and Rangers.

Yes, like I said. Ki are probably valued incorrectly, however. Ie, short rest spell points are valued wrong.

The issue is partly the issue of most adventuring days don't fit the shrt rests that balance would require.
However it is mostly that the 4E Monk fantasy (particularly Avatar-style benders) is almost that of a primary caster, and its "spell list" generally matches that.
But a half-caster cannot operate as a full caster, particularly if it is being further shorted by lack of short rests.
Rangers and Paladins use mostly buff and utility spells: - They can't operate as offensive casters either.
If there was a monk class with the same Ki levels and costs as the 4E monk, but its spells were buffs and utility like Hex, Shield of Faith, Bless etc, that monk would probably be fine. (Or at least better than the 4E).

Class features that synergise well are better than ones that don't even if they add up to the same "feature budget".

The 4elements monk mostly just needs the same ki/spell level cost as every other Spellcasting monk (1/spell level), and some disciplines that use and add to the attack action, rather than pretty much entirely ones that replace it.

 

[Don Durito]

The simplest way to make class design easier is to just bake subclasses into the main class.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Okay okay. I think each category should have a mark for “this is stronger than other traits of this category”. I’ll use an * here to show what I mean. The rule might be that if you pick a * Major Trait, you cannot pick a Moderate * Trait, or something like that.

Major Traits

• Full Casting*
• 2/3 Casting (a new thing to give a little more freedom, since part of the point here is to replace multiclassing
• Extra Attack (full Fighter progression)* ?

Moderate Traits

• Extra Attack (basic)
• Sneak Attack
• Half Casting
• Half Casting (Artificer)*
• Fighting Style
• Martial Arts
• Ki

Minor Traits

• 1/3 Casting (*?)
• Half-progression Sneak Attack (caps at 5d6)

Ribbons

• Natural Explorer*
  

That should give roughly an idea of what things “cost”. I’d say for the level 1 package, you just pick one from an existing class, but you can swap like proficiencies (rogue gives rapier, you could swap that for longbow, or swap thieves tools for tinker tools, or swap stealth for Arcana, etc)

Now, what is the best way to determine how to use this to make a class? Build some multiclass builds that aren’t overpowered and compare them to different combinations?
What I’d like is the following:

At Level 1 you choose a starting package from an existing class.

from level 1-3, you gain a subclass, and X Major Traits, Y Moderate Traits, Z Minor Traits. (repeat for level 4-7, 8-12, 13-16, and 17-20.

Generally, a Moderate Trait is worth half of a Major Trait, and a minor Trait is worth half of a Moderate Trait. Most classes have either 1 Major Trait, or 2 Moderate Traits by level 3.

Some features determine what level they are gained at, while others can be moved around. Each trait also shows what level it is gained at normally, in existing classes.

You can only have [1 or 2] Major Traits in a class.

Subclass: Choose a subclass progression. Each one shows roughly how much of your feature budget should be in your subclass.

So a step by step that just shows you what there is still room for when you’ve chosen a given set of features. So, if you take full casting, you won’t have as many moderate traits throughout your progression.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The simplest way to make class design easier is to just bake subclasses into the main class.

Or prescribe how many moderate and minor traits you can have in a subclass depending on what level you get your subclass.

But for a single character, yeah maybe.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Additional feats like the Rogue and Fighter get. - Minor traits you reckon?
Mathematically, full Sneak Attack progression keeps up with Fighter Extra Attack progression, all else being equal.
Fighting style seems Minor at best.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Additional feats like the Rogue and Fighter get. - Minor traits you reckon?

Hmmm. Yeah, I don’t think the average feat is equal to half casting, so probably minor.

Unless you look at them as a package of extra feats, in which case the fighter package might be moderate.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Hmmm. Yeah, I don’t think the average feat is equal to half casting, so probably minor.

Unless you look at them as a package of extra feats, in which case the fighter package might be moderate.

Good point. Getting a costing for feats would be useful though because abilities like extra skills, expertise, Fighting style can be costed roughly based on being able to pick them up via feats.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Good point. Getting a costing for feats would be useful though because abilities like extra skills, expertise, Fighting style can be costed roughly based on being able to pick them up via feats.

Yeah, and feats have a range themselves, as well.

But if we look at it that way...yeah, expertise is probably equal to a feat, if we look at prodigy or skill expert. So is the Rogue’s “2 extra skills and thieves tools”, probably. So, yeah, each extra feat I’d say is a Minor Trait, but I’d say that if you are getting full fighter extra feats, that’s a moderate trait at least?