D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Blue]

Your intent is irrelevant, in this case.

Making a lot of silly assumptions based on my very brief foundation for a magic system in order to tell me I’ve no idea what I’m talking about is a personal attack, regardless of what you mean to do.

I posited the basis for a replacement magic system. I’m not going to build a whole system to make a point. I don’t owe you that work, unless you want to pay me for it.

So, to address your needless, conclusion-first, assumptions about the proposed system;

No, I’ve not assumed any of those things. Even the action thing is only being assumed for some part of the magic system, because I’m specifically positing a system whose purspose is to replace D&Ds magic system with one that serves the same basic purpose, but in a less restrictive manner. That requires that some magic be usable in a fight.

If you’d specified specific goals, I’d have given you different answers.

Instead, you gave a completely vague challenge, and when I gave an example, you acted as if I’d suggested that my example could work for any set of goals.

Sorry you took it as a personal attack, but I specifically listed magic systems very different than D&D - specific goals as you just claimed I didn't give - at which point you demonstrated that you were just trying to fit into a D&D paradigm. If all you want to make is D&D, then of course it's "easy" to fit D&D-like things in it.

However, you have definitely demonstrated that you haven't actually given thought to bringing in elements of other games that are not D&D like. So any claim you have that it's easy or even possible in a balanced way is basically moot.

Which calls into question your entire premise in multiple ways. First it undermines the proposal that any bespoke systems can easily be ported into D&D, but even more importantly it shows that you're looking for D&D-type solutions, which is not compatible with the concept that all bespoke systems can become part of D&D.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I agree, that it might be overly general, but I think the opposite generalization (that a playing a different game will give you the experience you want) is equally untrue. And I don't think it is practical to get into the specifics of each and every game designed for a specific genre and how one can or can't get the experience they want by playing that game or a version of D&D that incorporates rules to accommodate that genre.

It's not really "equally untrue". It's highly varied. Some games are so extremely well-designed that if you literally follow the rules with players who wanna play you are, in fact, going to get the experience you want. Some aren't. Generally the latter are more likely to be generic games. In general the more generic a game is, the less likely it is to provide a specific experience. There's also the issue that some games are advertised as giving you want thing, but don't. The classic example being HERO/Champions, advertised and promoted as a superhero RPG, but basically a tactics-heavy squad-combat game which inexplicably has a lot of rules for superheroes lol.

So yeah there's some variation, especially across all RPGs, but the OP is basically posing "Bespoke Genre TTRPGs", so that's actually a pretty narrow range of TT RPGs, particularly PtbA and BitD ones recently, and in general, it's more true to say they'll give you the experience you want.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but I am not sure what examples you are talking about! Also, that is what the OP is talking about, D&D with different skins.

Like you were talking about doing superheroes or CoC or the like with 5E, and it's like, you can't, not without basically rebuilding the game from the ground up. What you can do is lightly incorporate a couple of elements, usually aesthetic ones rather than fundamental ones, and call them that thing. HP for example work fine with supers, but levels are a disaster, and both are a disaster for CoC (as the d20 CoC illustrated at length).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My most recent supers game I've acquired recognized this, and takes death off the table unless the player wants it.

Yeah I've played a couple of games which did this recently, and what's amazing to me is that it leads to more frequent deaths, but also vastly more dramatic and memorable ones (with my group at least).

 

[dave2008]

Sorry, haven't played that since the late 90s, and as FASA is no longer the holder of the Star Trek licence I imagine it's hard to get hold of.

OK, I just came across:

• FASA 2001 - Star Trek - The Roleplaying Game Box Set
• FASA 2003A - Starship Tactical Combat Simulator
• FASA 2004 - Star Trek The Role Playing Game - Basic Game (Second Edition)

And I didn't know which one to get.

Here is a rundown: It's played on a hexmap (big, we always put it on the floor). The ship tokens where also hexagonal to fit the maps - this is significant, since ships had six shield arcs, one for each counter side. For convenience, the game, like Khan, tended to ignore the Z-axis. The PCs generally had one ship and three where three A3 panels for the crew stations (panels/roles could be subdivided if more players). Square counters on sliding bars were used to record and adjust power distribution to ship's systems - shields, weapons, engines, life support etc. Whilst the nominated captain was in overall command, there was plenty for each player to do. Each PC crew member could make a skill roll (D100) try and do things like coax more power from the engines. Weapon firing arcs, range and facing were significant tactical considerations.

That sounds very cool and very Star Trek. Thank you for the rundown!

 

[TheSword]

The fact that Level up is doing exactly what @doctorbadwolf is saying just in lots of areas at the same time... without breaking the system shows that it absolutely can be done.

I totally agree with the premise of the OP. Hacking 5e is easy, simple and straightforward.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

OK, I just came across:

• FASA 2001 - Star Trek - The Roleplaying Game Box Set
• FASA 2003A - Starship Tactical Combat Simulator
• FASA 2004 - Star Trek The Role Playing Game - Basic Game (Second Edition)

They are all later editions! I last played around 1997, when I left that location/group of friends. If you wanted to use it to make D&D space combat I reckon you could use the Starship Tactical Combat Simulator without needing the basic game. Mine was a boxed edition, with die-cut tokens etc.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The fact that Level up is doing exactly what @doctorbadwolf is saying just in lots of areas at the same time... without breaking the system shows that it absolutely can be done.

I totally agree with the premise of the OP. Hacking 5e is easy, simple and straightforward.

With respect, it doesn't show that at all.

What it shows is you can incorporate elements into D&D and claim they're effective representations of other genres and styles, regardless of whether they actually are. Basically you can mangle anything you like, cram in into whatever RPG, and claim that RPG does genre X well. Doesn't mean it does. D&D breaking isn't the problem, or the expected issue. The opposite is the problem, that just jamming a few rando systems into D&D doesn't make D&D able to simulate other genre or styles well at all. The basic aspects of D&D are such that you're not able to get around some of them, not without rebuilding D&D in serious ways that make it essentially a merely D&D-like system.

 

[dave2008]

It's not really "equally untrue". It's highly varied. Some games are so extremely well-designed that if you literally follow the rules with players who wanna play you are, in fact, going to get the experience you want. Some aren't. Generally the latter are more likely to be generic games. In general the more generic a game is, the less likely it is to provide a specific experience. There's also the issue that some games are advertised as giving you want thing, but don't. The classic example being HERO/Champions, advertised and promoted as a superhero RPG, but basically a tactics-heavy squad-combat game which inexplicably has a lot of rules for superheroes lol.

So yeah there's some variation, especially across all RPGs, but the OP is basically posing "Bespoke Genre TTRPGs", so that's actually a pretty narrow range of TT RPGs, particularly PtbA and BitD ones recently,

You could be right. I don't really have enough experience with other systems to say.

and in general, it's more true to say they'll give you the experience you want.

Perhaps, if that it is indeed what you want. I have found that often we think we want something different, but when we try other systems we find what we really want is a D&D version of that genre.

Like you were talking about doing superheroes or CoC or the like with 5E, and it's like, you can't, not without basically rebuilding the game from the ground up. What you can do is lightly incorporate a couple of elements, usually aesthetic ones rather than fundamental ones, and call them that thing. HP for example work fine with supers, but levels are a disaster, and both are a disaster for CoC (as the d20 CoC illustrated at length).

I disagree, but what you want from a CoC game and what we want from a CoC game may be different. I mean Sandy has a whole 5e CoC supplement. Now it wasn't available when I ran a CoC style adventure, but the group definitely felt we captured what we liked about CoC from the 80s.

FYI, correct me if I am wrong, buy CoC had hit points back in the 80s (at least that is how I remember it). I know the monsters did.

 

[dave2008]

Like you were talking about doing superheroes or CoC or the like with 5E, and it's like, you can't, not without basically rebuilding the game from the ground up. What you can do is lightly incorporate a couple of elements, usually aesthetic ones rather than fundamental ones, and call them that thing. HP for example work fine with supers, but levels are a disaster, and both are a disaster for CoC (as the d20 CoC illustrated at length).

FYI, here are the rules changes we made for the PC side of things for our 5e CoC style game:

1. No caster classes
2. Our standard AC and DR house rules
3. Our standard BHP, rest, and healing house rules
4. Revised HP rules: no Con Bonus to HP, you get 1 HP for each D6, 2 for a D8, 3 for a D10, and 5 for a D12
5. Added lingering injury variant rules.

We didn't use sanity rules because we never liked that in CoC to begin with. Everything else was just handled by me on the DM side. Very simple. Very easy to make fighting monsters something to be avoided.

They made it 5 levels before the glorious TPK.

 

[loverdrive]

I'd agree with you, if we were talking, say, Fate — something actually flexible and hackable that doesn't come with a bunch of stupid assumptions.

D&D on the other hand is like the opposite of a hackable system.