D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Marc_C]

I recall an era in which TSR released many RPGs using different sets of rules for each. Top Secret, Gang Busters, Star Frontiers and Gamma World to name a few. Each RPG had specific rules that reinforced (supported) its own default campaign setting. We relished learning these new systems and trying them out. Thus, it never occurred to me to change AD&D into another genre RPG. Also, we bought other games like CoC for Horror, Battletech, Cyberpunk 2020, etc.

 

[Umbran]

EDIT: Also why would it necessarily not have been playtested? There's nothing wrong with playtesting and adjusting during gameplay... especially if you are upfront with your players about it.

So... in this sense "playtested" is a matter of scale. D&D was playtested by thousands and thousands of people prior to publication. How many people "playtested" your modification before someone was depending on it to help them have a good time?

Now, the risks of not playtesting are different for you than for WotC - if WotC doesn't playtest, they have a huge development cost that does down the drain. If the material you use at table isn't play-tested... someone ends up having a bad time at the table.

As GM, I don't give a whit about the development costs. I do, however, care about the table experience. Someone having a bad time is what we call "failure" for GMs.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Paul, do recommend a particular version of FASA Trek and where do I find the ship rules. I am trying to get a copy, but there are lot of options and I am not sure where to start or where the ship rules are. Any advice is welcome!

Sorry, haven't played that since the late 90s, and as FASA is no longer the holder of the Star Trek licence I imagine it's hard to get hold of.

Here is a rundown: It's played on a hexmap (big, we always put it on the floor). The ship tokens where also hexagonal to fit the maps - this is significant, since ships had six shield arcs, one for each counter side. For convenience, the game, like Khan, tended to ignore the Z-axis. The PCs generally had one ship and three where three A3 panels for the crew stations (panels/roles could be subdivided if more players). Square counters on sliding bars were used to record and adjust power distribution to ship's systems - shields, weapons, engines, life support etc. Whilst the nominated captain was in overall command, there was plenty for each player to do. Each PC crew member could make a skill roll (D100) try and do things like coax more power from the engines. Weapon firing arcs, range and facing were significant tactical considerations.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This thread reads like a massive, rude middle finger given to all non-D&D games and their designers. I don't need that sort of negative energy in my life or from the sort people who endorse these sorts of viewpoints.

Then you’re reading into it things that aren’t present.

I love many non-D&D games. This thread is about discussing why people suggest using them when someone asks for advice on playing a D&D game with elements of other genres, for the most part. I’ve also said that I don’t like it when bespoke genre games gamify things like a PCs emotional response or connection. That isn’t a rude middle finger, it’s just a statement of preference.

 

[dave2008]

It's a terrible point as a general point, and you're more than smart enough to know that @dave2008. D&D can adapt some things extremely easily, but it's virtually impossible to adapt other things. So generalizing that you don't have to fold/spindle/mutilate is pointless and untrue.

I agree, that it might be overly general, but I think the opposite generalization (that a playing a different game will give you the experience you want) is equally untrue. And I don't think it is practical to get into the specifics of each and every game designed for a specific genre and how one can or can't get the experience they want by playing that game or a version of D&D that incorporates rules to accommodate that genre.

So I guess though I agree it is overly general, the OP is comparing two general statements and I think there is some value in that. We just need to understand that we are dealing with generalities.

Your examples show that what you're actually doing though, is folding/spindling and mutilating stuff to jam it into D&D. You're basically just playing D&D with different "skins" and calling it other things.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but I am not sure what examples you are talking about! Also, that is what the OP is talking about, D&D with different skins.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I hate to point out the obvious (but you did ignore my request for FASA Trek help ) so....you do realize you comparing sea-going naval rules to space ship rules? I would be interested in how the FASA Trek rules could handle wizards through fire balls at each other on wooden sea-going ships just 100 feet or less apart. That is one reason I asked for some help.

I wasn't ignoring you, I was typing. And I have also tried using the GoS rules for Eberron airship combat.

Obviously, the FASA rules wouldn't have to handle wizards, because Star Trek is not D&D. You are pretty much making the point yourself, it's not just that the D&D ship rules are bad in themselves, they would not be applicable for a universe without wizards and with 1000 km hexes.

 

[Umbran]

Some do, but then again, some don't or maybe shouldn't if they're going for a particular genre. For example, there's no way a Star Wars RPG should be more lethal than D&D for the protagonists. If it was significantly so, it would almost certainly fail to emulate Star Wars. Same with superhero RPGs, which should be even less lethal than D&D.

My most recent supers game I've acquired recognized this, and takes death off the table unless the player wants it.

 

[dave2008]

I wasn't ignoring you, I was typing. And I also tried using the GoS rules for airship combat.

I assumed as much (that is why I put emoji), I was just being inpatient - sorry!

Obviously, the FASA rrules wouldn't have to handle wizards, because Star Trek is not D&D. You are pretty much making the point yourself, it's not just that the D&D ship rules were not bad in themselves, they would be applicable for a universe without wizards and with 1000 km hexes.

I think we are looking at this differently. The point, IMO, is not to use GoS naval rules for D&D in space, but to use another system's spaceship rules for D&D in space; rather than another system entirely and try to make it D&D in space.

 

[Marc_C]

Sorry, haven't played that since the late 90s, and as FASA is no longer the holder of the Star Trek licence I imagine it's hard to get hold of.

Here is a rundown: It's played on a hexmap (big, we always put it on the floor). The ship tokens where also hexagonal to fit the maps - this is significant, since ships had six shield arcs, one for each counter side. For convenience, the game, like Khan, tended to ignore the Z-axis. The PCs generally had one ship and three where three A3 panels for the crew stations (panels/roles could be subdivided if more players). Square counters on sliding bars were used to record and adjust power distribution to ship's systems - shields, weapons, engines, life support etc. Whilst the nominated captain was in overall command, there was plenty for each player to do. Each PC crew member could make a skill roll (D100) try and do things like coax more power from the engines. Weapon firing arcs, range and facing was a significant tactical consideration.

I played FASA Star Trek back in the 80s. It is great for a war-game but not for a RPG. There is too much accounting in the system. I don't want to play a slow space combat war-game in the middle of a rpg session.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think we are looking at this differently. The point, IMO, is not to use GoS naval rules for D&D in space, but to use another system's spaceship rules for D&D in space; rather than another system entirely and try to make it D&D in space.

My point is, Star Trek is not D&D in space. If you want D&D in space the D&D rules are fine*. But if you want Star Trek the D&D rules are not fine.


*well, you would probably want to start from scratch with the starship combat, but apart from that they are fine.