Does Roll20 get Kickstarters taken down if they mention them?

[Morrus]

This is more like making an iPhone app, though - and if you want to do that, and have it carried on the Apple store, you so very much do need to play ball with Apple.

Yes, Apple can certainly stop you publishing an app in their App store, but Apple can't stop you telling people you intend to make an iPhone app (or accessory or phone case). And they can't stop you advertising that fact. I could state right now, right here, that I plan to make an iPhone app with no recourse.

Roll20 can decide what happens in their store, but they can't dictate what people do outside it, including making claims of compatibility, as long as they don't do so in a way as to confuse customers into thinking Roll20 is making or endorses the product.

What they could say is "If you try to make a Roll20 module KS without our permission, we won't let you use the product on our platform". But that's very different to what they're actually saying.

So I'd be curious, too, whether this has actually happened.

 

[MarkB]

Yes, Apple can certainly stop you publishing an app in their App store, but Apple can't stop you telling people you intend to make an iPhone app (or accessory or phone case). And they can't stop you advertising that fact. I could state right now, right here, that I plan to make an iPhone app with no recourse.

To some degree. But if you are offering that app as a reward in return for payment, you are making a commitment to deliver that app. And since iPhone apps can only be delivered through the App Store, you are now making a commitment upon Apple's behalf, that they can and will deliver the product you specify.

If it's a product that they either cannot (for technical reasons) or will not (for business or ethical reasons) deliver, your promise could be seen as defamatory to Apple, and they could take action to have it removed, or seek legal compensation from you.

It's the same situation with Roll20. In order for content to be available on Roll20, it has to be delivered as either a free or marketplace product via Roll20's website.

 

[Morrus]

Generally speaking, you can't use their logo. And I think that's what Roll20's position is. You can't use their logo without their permission. That's not the same as claiming compatibility with their brand.

That said, you can sell off-brand ink for printers, or cases for phones, or apps for software, and you can say so. This is all perfectly legal. You run into problems when you make claims about the source of the product. I can make an accessory for Ford motor vehicles, and I can advertise it and sell it; I just can't claim it's made by or endorsed by Ford. I can run a garage which advertises that it repairs BMWs, as long as I'm not pretending I"m an authorised BMW dealer. I can make a phone charger or a D&D book.

It's more nuanced than that, obviously, so anybody planning on doing it should check with their lawyer. You'd have to make sure your ad copy is on point.

(I guess if Roll20 refuses to allow it on their store, your product isn't actually compatible, which means the customer has a cause of action against you).

 

[Morrus]

If it's a product that they either cannot (for technical reasons) or will not (for business or ethical reasons) deliver, your promise could be seen as defamatory to Apple, and they could take action to have it removed, or seek legal compensation from you.

Defamation is an entirely different topic, and not really applicable here.

 

[Waller]

This is more like making an iPhone app, though - and if you want to do that, and have it carried on the Apple store, you so very much do need to play ball with Apple.

While that is pragmatic and sensible, Apple can’t stop you running a Kickstarter for an app. They can prevent you putting the app in their App Store, but that’s a different issue entirely.

 

[tomBitonti]

Their text could use a clean up. They present two specific problems: Unauthorized trademark use, and unapproved promises of Roll20 support. But they conclude with “to have unauthorized use removed from the site.”, which matches the first problem, but is a bad match for the second. Better text world match the specificity more precisely. The unauthorized use (of the trademark) world be removed, and the unapproved promise of support would be removed. Nowhere does it say that the offering as a whole would be removed, although, that might be done as the simplest remedy until the problem use and/or promises were removed.

The text from the Roll20 page:

Roll20 works with publishers on an individual basis for crowdfunding campaigns. Use of the Roll20 trademark without our authorization is not allowed. Do not promise Roll20 rewards for your campaign without our permission. Doing so is cause for us to contact the crowdfunding platform to have unauthorized use pulled from the site.

Tom Bitonti

 

[Waller]

Their text could use a clean up. They present two specific problems: Unauthorized trademark use, and unapproved promises of Roll20 support. But they conclude with “to have unauthorized use removed from the site.”, which matches the first problem, but is a bad match for the second. Better text world match the specificity more precisely. The unauthorized use (of the trademark) world be removed, and the unapproved promise of support would be removed. Nowhere does it say that the offering as a whole would be removed, although, that might be done as the simplest remedy until the problem use and/or promises were removed.

The text from the Roll20 page:


Tom Bitonti

I think the confusion arises with "Do not promise Roll20 rewards for your campaign without our permission" which is not something they can enforce, or even ethically demand. They can ask you not to use their logo in a manner which would confuse customers as to the source of the product, but they can't prevent you from advertising your plans to make a compatible product any more than Apple can prevent you advertising a phone charger. It feels like bluster, which is why I keep asking if anybody is aware of them having actually done this?

 

[tomBitonti]

I think the confusion arises with "Do not promise Roll20 rewards for your campaign without our permission" which is not something they can enforce, or even ethically demand. They can ask you not to use their logo in a manner which would confuse customers as to the source of the product, but they can't prevent you from advertising your plans to make a compatible product any more than Apple can prevent you advertising a phone charger. It feels like bluster, which is why I keep asking if anybody is aware of them having actually done this?

I’m thinking that promise of support can only be accomplished with the assistance of Roll20. Then, claiming Roll20 provide support would be similar to stating that Apple would be building the use of a specific application into iOS.

Tom Bitonti

 

[Morrus]

I’m thinking that promise of support can only be accomplished with the assistance of Roll20. Then, claiming Roll20 provide support would be similar to stating that Apple would be building the use of a specific application into iOS.

A claim of compatibility with another product, and a claim of support from that product’s manufacturer, are two very different claims. The latter is not what we’re talking about here.

 

[tomBitonti]

A claim of compatibility with another product, and a claim of support from that product’s manufacturer, are two very different claims. The latter is not what we’re talking about here.

Sure. The question is, what does “Roll20 reward“ mean, and how involved is Roll20 in providing a reward? If there is substantial work that must be done by Roll20 to create the award, then the Roll20 statement seems fine. If the award is simply a dataset that any current Roll20 user can import then the Roll20 statement seems too strong, and beyond what can be dictated.
Tom Bitonti