D&D 5E Can a hasted bladesinger cast a cantrip with the haste extra action

[doctorbadwolf]

Because you can't use the first part of the feature there is no way to use the second part. "... in place of one of those attacks" is impossible because you don't have "those attacks" granted by Extra Attack.

That isn’t a thing. There is no results language like that anywhere in the game. Nothing anywhere in the rules says that if some part of a feature is unusable in a given circumstance the entire feature is unusable. You are literally making something up to get to your preferred conclusion.

The Attack action normally also allows for Grappling and Shoveing, those are not weapon attacks and so not eligible to be used with the Attack Action from Haste.

They absolutely are eligible to be used with the Attack Action from Haste. Replacing a single attack.

 

[Maxperson]

The haste wording only prevent taking more than one attack. That’s it. It does not say “you can’t use Extra Attack”.

Extra attack is USED to get more than one attack.

You're making a perceived RAI argument and pretending it’s RAW. It is not. RAW, the combination is allowed.

Where in RAW does it allow you to use features that can't be used?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Extra attack is USED to get more than one attack.

There is nothing in the rules that even implies that if one part of a feature doesn’t work, the rest of it also doesn’t work.

Where in RAW does it allow you to use features that can't be used?

you’ve got it backwards. Such a restriction would have to be spelled out, or at least implied in the text somewhere, to exist.

The difference is that you can grab someone if you have only a single attack. A Bladesinger cannot swap out an attack without multiple attacks. Before he gets the the extra attack feature, he needs to use the Cast a Spell action to cast a cantrip.

If an effect robs the BS of the ability to make more than one attack, without specifically stating they can’t use the Extra Attack feature, the BS can still use their one attack to cast a cantrip.

The dynamic you’re proposing doesn’t exist in the rules. It’s a thing that makes sense to you, and that you are then projecting on to the rules.

 

[jgsugden]

1.) Ask your DM, because there is enough uncertainty that this will be a DM ruling. What we say doesn't matter.

2.) How I would rule it: You can only do one weapon attack with the haste action when you use the extra Attack action while using Haste. That limitation remains in place even if you have another optional ability that sometimes lets you replace the attack with a cantrip. As such - no, you could not use the Attack action and then replace it with a cantrip due to the limitation.

 

[Weiley31]

My only gripe with that particular ruling is it puts the bladesinger even more head and shoulders over the Eldritch Knight for using SCAG cantrips in melee, which feels wrong.

Well at least until, like what, Level 14 for the Eldritch Knight where they can basically do the same thing. Course I always felt like that the Bladesinger's modified Extra Attack rule should also apply to the Valor Bard, Eldritch Knight, or any other class that gets a similar feature/concept.

 

[ph0rk]

Well at least until, like what, Level 14 for the Eldritch Knight where they can basically do the same thing.

Level 18? That's just a leveled spell and bonus action attack; Valor Bards get that at 14.

Unless you mean haste, but an EK using haste can't cantrip twice with it, because they must use the cast a spell action to cast a cantrip, not the attack action. So they are, at best, getting a cantrip, a BA attack, and the haste attack, which is probably inferior to three attacks plus the haste attack (and an unused bonus action).

 

[Argyle King]

. The language used is completely ambiguous. In English, there is no way to distinguish between the two meanings.

There is:
one weapon attack
one-weapon attack
one weapon-attack
one-weapon-attack
one, weapon, attack
one (weapon) attack...

Punctuation and context make all of those into different things.

 

[Maxperson]

Level 18? That's just a leveled spell and bonus action attack; Valor Bards get that at 14.

Unless you mean haste, but an EK using haste can't cantrip twice with it, because they must use the cast a spell action to cast a cantrip, not the attack action. So they are, at best, getting a cantrip, a BA attack, and the haste attack, which is probably inferior to three attacks plus the haste attack (and an unused bonus action).

Bladesinger can't use a cantrip twice, either. They don't get bonus action cantrips. This whole discussion about whether they can use their ability with the haste action is moot, since it's incredibly probable that they already used a cantrip with their normal attack action.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Level 18? That's just a leveled spell and bonus action attack; Valor Bards get that at 14.

Unless you mean haste, but an EK using haste can't cantrip twice with it, because they must use the cast a spell action to cast a cantrip, not the attack action. So they are, at best, getting a cantrip, a BA attack, and the haste attack, which is probably inferior to three attacks plus the haste attack (and an unused bonus action).

I think the EK should be able to cast a cantrip as a bonus action when they use the attack action, rather than the other way around.

Either that, or let the EK make a single attack as part of the same action used to cast a spell.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Bladesinger can't use a cantrip twice, either. They don't get bonus action cantrips. This whole discussion about whether they can use their ability with the haste action is moot, since it's incredibly probable that they already used a cantrip with their normal attack action.

From the PHB;

“Bonus Action​

A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.”

So no, nothing prevents the Bladesinger from casting 2 action spells in the same turn. You can also cast 2 action spells with Action Surge, if you have that feature.