D&D 5E Can a hasted bladesinger cast a cantrip with the haste extra action

[doctorbadwolf]

Please show me where in the "attack" action it refers to a "weapon attack?"

By your reading grappling and shoving are also ok because they replace the "attack." But it's not an "attack" it's a "weapon attack."

If the designers had intended otherwise they could have left the word "weapon" out and it would be 100% perfectly clear. But they didn't, it's in there and so it's not an "attack" it's a "weapon attack" - whether it's intentional or it's just sloppy, It's different.

A weapon attack is an attack.

 

[Maxperson]

You are taking the attack action, when you attack with haste.

Right. And the attack action says that some features like extra attack give extra attacks, which indicates that if you don't get that extra attack, the feature hasn't applied. You can of course interpret that differently, but RAW is unclear on which way it goes.

 

[Mort]

A weapon attack is an attack.

Yes, but it seems to be a limitation on the general attack action - by specifically requiring a weapon.

Normally you can substitute in an unarmed strike - but it's not a weapon, so is excluded.

Normally, you can substitute a shove or a grapple - but it's not a weapon, so it's excluded.

Normally the BS can substitute in a cantrip - but it's not a weapon, so it's excluded.

 

[Maxperson]

A weapon attack is an attack.

His point is this. A weapon attack = an attack, but an attack =/= a weapon attack. If you can swap an attack, then that it different from being able to swap a weapon attack. I don't necessarily agree, but that's what he is getting at.

 

[Mort]

His point is this. A weapon attack = an attack, but an attack =/= a weapon attack. If you can swap an attack, then that it different from being able to swap a weapon attack. I don't necessarily agree, but that's what he is getting at.

My point is, It's not at all clear.

"weapon attack" is used a few times in the combat chapter of the PHB. None of those help clarify this.

Again, the spell could have simply said "attack" and done - but it doesn't - so it's murky.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, but it seem to be a limitation on the general attack action - by specifically requiring a weapon.

Normally you can substitute in an unarmed strike - but it's not a weapon, so is excluded.

Normally, you can substitute a shove or a grapple - but it's not a weapon, so it's excluded.

Normally the BS can substitute in a cantrip - but it's not a weapon, so it's excluded.

Those are not all the same. Both grapple and shove say that you are making a special melee attack which is covered by the attack action. Haste wouldn't allow that since the attack is specifically a weapon attack. However, Bladesingers swap can in place of the attack(any attack) a cantrip. It's a specific attack into cantrip ability, not just another aspect of the attack action like shove and grapple are.

Since the Bladesinger ability is NOT just another aspect of the attack action like shove and grapple are, it becomes a case of specific beats general, which requires a DM ruling since it's not clear which ability has priority.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes, but it seems to be a limitation on the general attack action - by specifically requiring a weapon.

Normally you can substitute in an unarmed strike - but it's not a weapon, so is excluded.

Normally, you can substitute a shove or a grapple - but it's not a weapon, so it's excluded.

Normally the BS can substitute in a cantrip - but it's not a weapon, so it's excluded.

That is literally just a jump you’re making with no logical bridge. I’m sorry, but you’re projecting what you think would be a logical rule onto the game when it just isn’t there.

 

[Mort]

Those are not all the same. Both grapple and shove say that you are making a special melee attack which is covered by the attack action. Haste wouldn't allow that since the attack is specifically a weapon attack. However, Bladesingers swap can in place of the attack(any attack) a cantrip. It's a specific attack into cantrip ability, not just another aspect of the attack action like shove and grapple are.

Since the Bladesinger ability is NOT just another aspect of the attack action like shove and grapple are, it becomes a case of specific beats general, which requires a DM ruling since it's not clear which ability has priority.

But that's just it no?

BS allows swapping out the cantrip for one of your attacks (taken through the attack action). While you get an attack action with haste - it's limited to a weapon attack. So is it still general enough to swap out like a regular attack action would be?

It's not that clear.

 

[Maxperson]

But that's just it no?

BS allows swapping out the cantrip for one of your attacks (taken through the attack action). While you get an attack action with haste - it's limited to a weapon attack. So is it still general enough to swap out like a regular attack action would be?

It's not that clear.

I agree that it's not clear, which requires a DM ruling to see if it's allowed. RAW doesn't tell us.

What I was saying in the last post is that the Bladesinger ability is different from Shove and Grapple, which are just types of melee attacks and are covered under the general attack action rule. Being covered under the general rule means that the specific exception in Haste beats general in those circumstances. Of the three, only the Bladesinger ability can possibly be applied, due to the ambiguity in RAW.

 

[Mort]

That is literally just a jump you’re making with no logical bridge. I’m sorry, but you’re project what you think would be a logical rule onto the game when it just isn’t there.

You've been asked to show how "weapon attack" and "attack" are equivalent. I may very well have missed something and would be glad to see what I missed.

Instead, you're going Ad hominem?