D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[TwoSix]

What if Preserving is spellcasting at a cost... and Defiling just... isn't.

To Preserve while casting you take longer, spend more, or whatever... And defiling is just normal everyday 5e casting instead of getting a bonus/penalty?

That way players view Defiling as "Normal Casting" and Preserving as "Weak Casting"... That's a hilariously simple solution.

Not apples to apples, but for Worlds Without Number, I have all High Magic automatically defile, unless the caster makes a skill check. If they fail, they either defile the area or take system strain equal to the level of the spell. There's also a "Preserver's Art" that lets them invest effort into not defiling for a scene.

 

[Steampunkette]

That's a lot to remember and a lot to convert. I will be very surprised if, assuming preserving/defiling is an overlay system and no
subclass based, preserving is not just default spellcasting rules.

Oh, I meant any -one- of those things. That those were all functions of a spell that Preserving -could- weaken.

Any of those things could be applied to Preserving a Spell in the rules and then Defilement is just regular spellcasting.

Not apples to apples, but for Worlds Without Number, I have all High Magic automatically defile, unless the caster makes a skill check. If they fail, they either defile the area or take system strain equal to the level of the spell. There's also a "Preserver's Art" that lets them invest effort into not defiling for a scene.

Very cool concept!

5e doesn't have anything markedly interchangeable for System Strain as you noted... maybe sacrificing Hit Dice? Not sure.

 

[Minigiant]

... oh... OH.

What if Preserving is spellcasting at a cost... and Defiling just... isn't.

To Preserve while casting you take longer, spend more, or whatever... And defiling is just normal everyday 5e casting instead of getting a bonus/penalty?

That way players view Defiling as "Normal Casting" and Preserving as "Weak Casting"... That's a hilariously simple solution.

Functions for Preserving to weaken:
1/2 Duration
Disadvantage on Concentration Checks to maintain the more tenuous magic
Smaller Damage Dice Sizes (Fireball as 8d4 isn't a -huge- change, damage-wise, but it could be viewed as a painful loss by many players)
Increased Casting Times (Uses Action -and- Bonus Action, Takes multiple initiative counts to finish, requires a reaction to launch the spell)

I'd say both.

Remember: The conduit for Arcane Magic is broken on Dark Sun. Really no Arcanist should cast normally.

Defiling should be better than normal casting.
Preserving should be worse than normal casting.

Only templars, druids, rangers, psions, and master preservers really should "cast spells normally".

 

[Aldarc]

@TwoSix, how are you doing defiling/preserving magic in your WWN game?

 

[Steampunkette]

I'd say both.

Remember: The conduit for Arcane Magic is broken on Dark Sun. Really no Arcanist should cast normally.

Defiling should be better than normal casting.
Preserving should be worse than normal casting.

Only templars, druids, rangers, psions, and master preservers really should "cast spells normally".

Right now I've got both in Dark Sun 5e Systems Resource Document - The Homebrewery

But, really, that's just some homebrew guidelines.

Maybe we should make a new "Dark Sun 5e Rules Ideas" thread to discuss Defiling and stuff?

 

[TheSword]

I mean...

Upcasting is a thing? But it doesn't improve most spells to the same degree. And there are many spells it doesn't improve at -all-.

Why would any Defiler, for example, Upcast "Detect Evil and Good" or "Hideous Laughter" or "Grease"? Even really powerful and useful spells like "Haste" don't always have upcast options. Those that do are almost always just "Moar Damage" magic.

D&D 5e Scaling Spells, 1st-3rd

One of my favorite mechanics in D&D 5e is the scaling spells. No need to have a bunch of copies that just do the same thing, only at a higher spell level, when you can just have a lower level o…

samhaine.wordpress.com

D&D 5e Scaling Spells, 4th-8th

Continued from last week, here are the rest of the spells cast at higher level. As with the previous set, arguments about my choices are welcome in the comments. Level 4 Spells Arcane Eye: When you…

samhaine.wordpress.com

1st level spells that don't have an upcast option: 18
2nd level spells that don't have an upcast option: 32
3rd level spells that don't have an upcast option: 25
4th level spells that don't have an upcast option: 20
5th level spells that don't have an upcast option: 20
6th level spells that don't have an upcast option: 19
7th level spells that don't have an upcast option: 17
8th level spells that don't have an upcast option: 15
9th level spells that don't have an upcast option: All of 'em, obviously. >.>

Now if you could cast that spell and have a 50% chance of not expending the spell slot used for it... that's a different creature. Especially for those 9th level spell slots.

Defiling giving free upcasting, makes the violent and destructive spells more powerful. Spells to which MOAR POWER would make sense.

Or spells where there is a combination of wills (dispel magic) or expanding an effect to multiple souls (banishment).

This is far more interesting and in keeping with a defiler’s power hungry, greedy, destructive nature than being able to cast haste an extra time per day.

I feel quite strongly that preserving (which will be the default casting for PCs as it has always been) should not be made harder or less effective than vanilla D&D. Wizards are balanced against other classes in 5e. Adding caster checks or slower spells throws this off. It just shouldn’t be done.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Steampunkette]

Defiling giving free upcasting, makes the violent and destructive spells more powerful. Spells to which MOAR POWER would make sense.

Or spells where there is a combination of wills (dispel magic) or expanding an effect to multiple souls (banishment).

This is far more interesting and in keeping with a defiler’s power hungry, greedy, destructive nature than being able to cast haste an extra time per day.

I feel quite strongly that preserving (which will be the default casting for PCs as it has always been) should not be made harder or less effective than vanilla D&D. Wizards are balanced against other classes in 5e. Adding caster checks or slower spells throws this off. It just shouldn’t be done.

Just my thoughts.

I mean... that's fair?

But with the d20 roll to retain the slot you could instead fire MORE fireballs, rather than one slightly stronger. A level 5 Defiling Wizard could wind up chucking 10 fireballs in a row if they're on a, forgive the pun, hot streak.

In the end, it's not super important what the benefit is. I just feel like it should apply to all spells, not a specific subset. If only to make it more attractive in general.

And if Preserving doesn't have a penalty? That benefit has to be even -bigger- to make it more attractive. If it's something small, like a free upcast making that Fireball do 9d6 instead of 8d6... I dunno. Feels like it would need to be bigger.

What if Defiling, instead, allowed you to whip out Metamagic as a Wizard? Empowered Spell to reroll low damage dice, Extended Spell for stuff that doesn't deal damage, Heightening it to force Disadvantage on Saves?

No Sorcery Point cost attached to it. Just Defile. It's so easy. So simple. What can it hurt...?

 

[Yaarel]

My initial approach is:
• defiling = balanced spellcasting
• preserving = underpowered spellcasting

Along these lines, the preserver avoided using the highest available slot level, but can safely use any of the lower slots. Using the highest slots causes defilement. To use the highest slot remains an ongoing temptation.



Now, where the defiler is destroying Water, I wonder if the preserver can actually create Water, to replenish the environment.

Where the elemental magical properties of Water are lifeforce and healing, what if the preserver Wizard is a healer. Thus the Wizard can use the highest slots only to upcast a Cure Wounds spell. The highest slots can only be used for healing, any other use causes defilement.

 

[Steampunkette]

My initial approach is:
• defiling = balanced spellcasting
• preserving = underpowered spellcasting

Along these lines, the preserver avoided using the highest available slot level, but can safely use any of the lower slots. Using the highest slots causes defilement. To use the highest slot remains an ongoing temptation.



Now, where the defiler is destroying Water, I wonder if the preserver can actually create Water, to replenish the environment.

Where the elemental magical properties of Water are lifeforce and healing, what if the preserver Wizard is a healer. Thus the Wizard can use the highest slots only to upcast a Cure Wounds spell. The highest can only be used for healing, any other use cause defilement.

... that's an Elemental Cleric. Not a Wizard.

Dark Sun still has the Arcane/Divine split, even if D&D in general doesn't respect it. Has to for Defiling to work in the same world where a Cleric can cast spells without defiling.

 

[Yaarel]

Avangion transformation blends preserving and psionics, but it does connect the themes of preserving wizardry with water and healing, and plants.