D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[Minigiant]

If 5e doesn't go the 4e route and ban a bunch of classes, 5eDark Sun would need to make subclasses for paladins and warlocks to make them both templars, clerics for new domains, and sorcerers to make sensible bloodlines (wild magic, dragon, divine soul, clockwork don't make sense).

Then you have a nudge to make a gladiator fighter and a anti-defilement druid..

So there would be little room a wizard subclass. So I'd do defiling and preserving as an external rule only.

 

[vecna00]

If 5e doesn't go the 4e route and ban a bunch of classes, 5eDark Sun would need to make subclasses for paladins and warlocks to make them both templars, clerics for new domains, and sorcerers to make sensible bloodlines (wild magic, dragon, divine soul, clockwork don't make sense).

I think it could be done with just some fluff changes, but that definitely doesn't stop someone from homebrewing up some unique ones for their table or DM's Guild. I don't think they would need to be printed in the book.

For the campaign I eventually plan to run (pending time), I plan on making most every class and subclass available. However, just because it's available, that doesn't mean there will be others of that class floating around. That character might be a one-off who stumbled upon the knowledge on their own or were taught by a lost mentor. You won't find an order of paladins, unless they're templars. Just like the only group of artificers would be the Rhul-thaun life-shapers.

 

[Remathilis]

I think the debates of things like defiling, large races and psionics all get in the way of the True Meaning of Dark Sun.

To watch a player role up a PC that can do 3d6+13 points of damage per round at third level, and then watch that PC die of dehydration three sessions later.

 

[vecna00]

I think the debates of things like defiling, large races and psionics all get in the way of the True Meaning of Dark Sun.

To watch a player role up a PC that can do 3d6+13 points of damage per round at third level, and then watch that PC die of dehydration three sessions later.

You're not wrong. In fact, I think it's scientifically proven somewhere.

 

[Yaarel]

As a thought experiment, each class has one subclass to represent the Dark Sun version of it.

• Artificer − city builder? weapons maker?
• Barbarian − Halfling culture?
• Bard − Shaman? Illusionist?
• Cleric − cosmic force religion (compare Daoism: 5 elements = 4 plus whole: water, fire, plant-air, metal-crystal, plus soil-space-planet)
• Druid − Advocate (intermediary for the mind of a prominent local landscape feature, along with the minds of nearby plants and animals)
• Fighter − Gladiator
• Monk − Elf culture? Desert Runner
• Paladin − Templar?
• Psion − 1 Divination-Teleportation, 2 Telepathy-Charm-Illusion, 3 Shapeshift-Heal, 4 Telekinesis-Fly-Force (but maybe only 1 for Darksun)
• Ranger − Outland Warrior (preserves ancient traditional magics that are environmentally safe)
• Rogue − Minstrel (entertainer, assassin)
• Sorcerer − ?
• Warlock − Necromancer?
• Wizard − Dragon Defiler and Avangion Preserver (two aspects of the same subclass)

 

[Steampunkette]

As a thought experiment, each class has one subclass to represent the Dark Sun version of it.

• Artificer − city builder? weapons maker?
• Barbarian − Halfling culture?
• Bard − Shaman? Illusionist?
• Cleric − cosmic force religion (compare Daoism: 5 elements = 4 plus whole: water, fire, plant-air, metal-crystal, plus soil-space-planet)
• Druid − Advocate (intermediary for the mind of a prominent local landscape feature, along with the minds of nearby plants and animals)
• Fighter − Gladiator
• Monk − Elf culture? Desert Runner
• Paladin − Templar?
• Psion − 1 Divination-Teleportation, 2 Telepathy-Charm-Illusion, 3 Shapeshift-Heal, 4 Telekinesis-Fly-Force (but maybe only 1 for Darksun)
• Ranger − Outland Warrior (preserves ancient traditional magics that are environmentally safe)
• Rogue − Minstrel (entertainer, assassin)
• Sorcerer − ?
• Warlock − Necromancer?
• Wizard − Dragon Defiler and Avangion Preserver (two aspects of the same subclass)

Artificer: Archivist (Psi Crystals and Exploration)
Barbarian: Storm (Either as a Wilder or an Elemental Channeler)
Bard: Whispers (Psychic)
Cleric: Elemental Domain (Works like the Totem Barbarian where you get different benefits based on which elements you pick at different levels)
Druid: Land (Just refluff for different Dark Sun Regions)
Fighter: Battlemaster (Makes a great Gladiator already, just make up a Gladiator Background with performance as a skill and such)
Monk: Astral Self (Psychic)
Paladin: Oathbreaker (PC Paladins breaking their oaths to the Sorcerer-Kings)
Psion: Awakened or Telekineticist
Ranger: Monster Hunter (To track and kill Defilers)
Rogue: Minstrel, yeah. (2e Flavor)
Sorcerer: Just cut 'em outta the world... MAYBE Aberrant Mind, I guess.
Warlock: Hexblade (To make them also Templars)
Wizard: War Magic (Self-Defense and Attack)

Defiling/Preserving shouldn't be a subclass because all Arcanists need to face the same Defiling/Preserving structure, not just members of a specific Subclass of Wizard.

 

[Maxperson]

According to the 2e Monstrous Compendium
"Avangion. The transformation forces the preserver to pass through a series of steps that lead from human to avangion. ... The preserver/avangion blend is a more serene, peaceful process of light, water and the life-giving properties."

The transformation is gradual. For 5e, at lower levels, the preserver can be dabbling with water and healing.

Really, the Avangion could be a background or a subclass, that grants access to healing, light and water spells.

In 2e, the transformation occurs at epic tier. But it doesnt have to in 5e, especially when there is no epic tier. The avangion feels more like an Archfey, whence about the highest tier, levels 17 to 20.

A character can undergo avangion transformation if the want to, but they wouldnt have too. They can still be the "goodness and light" Wizard.



Wait. Is it really that any high-level Wizard might transform into either a dragon or an avangion? Is becoming a dragon involuntary because of too many defiling spells? (The avangion seems to be voluntary, tho.)

Both are voluntary and the processes spelled out in the Dragon Kings book.

"A preserver on the road to becoming an avangion must employ the preserver metamorphosis spell at each stage of advancement in level and
power. The preserver changes physical form drastically upon the spell's completion, each time bridging approximately one-tenth the gap between human and full avangion form."

"Defilers who have earned sufficient experience points to advance to the next stage must successfully cast the dragon metamorphosis spell. Once cast, the defiler's physical form mutates drastically, becoming less human and more dragon."

Then it gets into more detail depending on the level you are going to(21st to 30th).

 

[Maxperson]

Now, where the defiler is destroying Water, I wonder if the preserver can actually create Water, to replenish the environment.

I missed this the first time around. No. In Dark Sun it was a cleric only spell, and even then it only worked half as well as normal.

 

[Yaarel]

I feel quite strongly that preserving (which will be the default casting for PCs as it has always been) should not be made harder or less effective than vanilla D&D. Wizards are balanced against other classes in 5e. Adding caster checks or slower spells throws this off. It just shouldn’t be done.

I agree, the Preserver is the "normal" arcanist, that players are expected to play. So I guess I agree, the Preserver must balance mechanically with other standard player classes.

Heh, I have flashbacks of playing an old-school Dragonlance campaign, where I made the mistake of playing a Cleric whose class turned out to be sabotaged. I have irrationally hated Dragonlance ever since and want nothing to do with that setting.

For Dark Sun, I dont want to punish a Wizard player for playing in the Dark Sun campaign.

The upshot is:
• Preserver = balanced
• Defiler = overpowered



It occurs to me, the 5e Dark Sun campaign will almost certainly grant a choice of Psionic Talents as a free feat at level 1.

Thus, the mechanical empowerment of the Defiler can be a free feat instead of a Psionic Talent.

According to Dark Sun lore, arcane magic is generally hazardous to the environment. So, Preserver is the official (even licensed) Wizard school. Defiling techniques are taught in secret. So, while arcane magic generally destroys water, it still takes special training to gain benefit from this destruction. A Defiler feat at level 1 can represent this esoteric training. So the power boost of Defiling can balance against other feats.

 

[Yaarel]

Artificer: Archivist (Psi Crystals and Exploration)
Barbarian: Storm (Either as a Wilder or an Elemental Channeler)
Bard: Whispers (Psychic)
Cleric: Elemental Domain (Works like the Totem Barbarian where you get different benefits based on which elements you pick at different levels)
Druid: Land (Just refluff for different Dark Sun Regions)
Fighter: Battlemaster (Makes a great Gladiator already, just make up a Gladiator Background with performance as a skill and such)
Monk: Astral Self (Psychic)
Paladin: Oathbreaker (PC Paladins breaking their oaths to the Sorcerer-Kings)
Psion: Awakened or Telekineticist
Ranger: Monster Hunter (To track and kill Defilers)
Rogue: Minstrel, yeah. (2e Flavor)
Sorcerer: Just cut 'em outta the world... MAYBE Aberrant Mind, I guess.
Warlock: Hexblade (To make them also Templars)
Wizard: War Magic (Self-Defense and Attack)

Defiling/Preserving shouldn't be a subclass because all Arcanists need to face the same Defiling/Preserving structure, not just members of a specific Subclass of Wizard.

Artificer as a psionic subclass that inherits the Psi Crystal tradition − I love that idea!