D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[Steampunkette]

Avangion transformation blends preserving and psionics, but it does connect the themes of preserving wizardry with water and healing, and plants.

Sure... once you're a 20th level character who dual-classed from level 1. In 5e that would probably be the equivalent of having a Preserver Subclass for a Psion or a Psion subclass for a Wizard and the -end goal- would be to combine it all into the Avangion. But the "Preserving and Water" thing is because you do your ritual while surrounded by MILES of greenery and water. Making it almost impossible to become an Avangion unless you can secure part of the Forest Ridge for it.

That Wizard/Psion doesn't get Healing Spells at any point even after becoming an Avangion. They have tongues, know alignment, ESP, and detect lies active at all times, but that's as close as they get.

The ritual is literally you going "Hey! Hey! Athas! NOTICE ME SENPAI! I was a good boy! Make me an Angel, Please!? NOTICE MEEEEE!" and Athas going "Well. Alright, then." and water-plant-life splashing Avangion-ness all over you.

 

[Minigiant]

... oh... OH.

What if Preserving is spellcasting at a cost... and Defiling just... isn't.

To Preserve while casting you take longer, spend more, or whatever... And defiling is just normal everyday 5e casting instead of getting a bonus/penalty?

That way players view Defiling as "Normal Casting" and Preserving as "Weak Casting"... That's a hilariously simple solution.

Functions for Preserving to weaken:
1/2 Duration
Disadvantage on Concentration Checks to maintain the more tenuous magic
Smaller Damage Dice Sizes (Fireball as 8d4 isn't a -huge- change, damage-wise, but it could be viewed as a painful loss by many players)
Increased Casting Times (Uses Action -and- Bonus Action, Takes multiple initiative counts to finish, requires a reaction to launch the spell)

I'd say both.

Remember: The conduit for Arcane Magic is broken on Dark Sun. Really no Arcanist should cast normally.

Defiling should be better than normal casting.
Preserving should be worse than normal casting.
Only templars, druids, rangers, psions, and master preservers really should "cast spells normally".

My initial approach is:
• defiling = balanced spellcasting
• preserving = underpowered spellcasting

Along these lines, the preserver avoided using the highest available slot level, but can safely use any of the lower slots. Using the highest slots causes defilement. To use the highest slot remains an ongoing temptation.



Now, where the defiler is destroying Water, I wonder if the preserver can actually create Water, to replenish the environment.

Where the elemental magical properties of Water are lifeforce and healing, what if the preserver Wizard is a healer. Thus the Wizard can use the highest slots only to upcast a Cure Wounds spell. The highest slots can only be used for healing, any other use causes defilement.

Cool idea but it doesn't match the lore of Dark Sun.

In Dark Sun, only arcane magic can defile. Dark Sun is a setting that strictly names power sources and types of magic. And in D&D, wizards can't heal.

Also Defilers and Perservers use the same magic. Same spells. And have access to the same power. It's a choice to tap into defiling. Defiling didn't exist until Rajaat taught it to preservers. That was the crux of Rajaat's plan. He'd teach the best Perservers defiling and kill everyone but Halflings. A Defiler is just a Preserver with all the limiters off. The limiter was on every single arcane spell.

 

[Yaarel]

According to the 2e Monstrous Compendium
"Avangion. The transformation forces the preserver to pass through a series of steps that lead from human to avangion. ... The preserver/avangion blend is a more serene, peaceful process of light, water and the life-giving properties."

The transformation is gradual. For 5e, at lower levels, the preserver can be dabbling with water and healing.

Really, the Avangion could be a background or a subclass, that grants access to healing, light and water spells.

In 2e, the transformation occurs at epic tier. But it doesnt have to in 5e, especially when there is no epic tier. The avangion feels more like an Archfey, whence about the highest tier, levels 17 to 20.

A character can undergo avangion transformation if the want to, but they wouldnt have too. They can still be the "goodness and light" Wizard.



Wait. Is it really that any high-level Wizard might transform into either a dragon or an avangion? Is becoming a dragon involuntary because of too many defiling spells? (The avangion seems to be voluntary, tho.)

 

[Steampunkette]

According to the 2e Monstrous Compendium
"Avangion. The transformation forces the preserver to pass through a series of steps that lead from human to avangion. ... The preserver/avangion blend is a more serene, peaceful process of light, water and the life-giving properties."

The transformation is gradual. For 5e, at lower levels, the preserver can be dabbling with water and healing.

Really, the Avangion could be a background or a subclass, that grants access to healing, light and water spells.

In 2e, the transformation occurs at epic tier. But it doesnt have to in 5e, especially when there is no epic tier. The avangion feels more like an Archfey, whence about the highest tier, levels 17 to 20.

A character can undergo avangion transformation if the want to, but they wouldnt have too. They can still be the "goodness and light" Wizard.

Nnnnooo... No.

I get that you're touching on the right materials for 2e. But you're trying to turn the level 20/20+ Process into something that happens at level 3, when the player gets access to 2nd level spell slots. And making the -Ritual- Process that's about Light and Life and Water and Goodness into something the wizard can just swing around whenever.

The Rituals (Plural) are where water is involved. Not level 3 Healing Magic. And even in the Rituals, the Avangion isn't CREATING water. They're just NEAR water. Not CREATING life, just being BLESSED by it.

If you wanna make an "Avangion Spell School" for Wizards at your table, feel free. But it won't be representative of what Avangions are meant to be, or the Lore of Athas.

Avangions are meant to be these intensely super rare ridiculously hard to create Epic Destines, as 4e would describe them. Actually... lemme look up 4e Avangions.

Hey, look! They do get healing magic... at level 26. And some more at level 30.

Compared to level 3.

 

[cbwjm]

For preserving/defiling, I actually prefer a separate subsystem rather than a subclass. That way it makes it easier to integrate with other various classes/subclasses. I think an eldritch knight should be available on Athas to represent the old fighter/mage multiclass so a separate system would enable them to preserve/defile. I think 4e had an at-will reaction power that allowed a character to boost any arcane power, something like that I think would be good, though perhaps Mearls' simple "roll 11 or higher and regain the slot" would be best.

When I played around with preserving/defiling ages ago, it was something where I was considering wizards only and a wizard who defiled could access the spell levels from their arcane recovery feature instantly, allowing a 5th level defiler to fire off a 3rd fireball if needed. I also had a couple of feats that cemented a wizard's power in preserving/defiling. This only interacts with a single class though, so I'd have had to create something new for each class that defiled. I think another option I had was that defiling allowed you to add metamagic to a spell, I think that's how they did defiling in the 3e dark sun articles.

 

[vecna00]

I blame @vecna00 for this.

Dark Sun 5e Systems Resource Document

No description.

homebrewery.naturalcrit.com

View attachment 137602View attachment 137603View attachment 137604View attachment 137605View attachment 137606View attachment 137607View attachment 137608

Started at 9ish. It's 1:30 now. So just under 5 hours of effort... Nice.

Shoot. I forgot to mention that Mearls is the one who came up with the 50% chance to regain a spell slot when defiling. I'll add that to the homebrewery, but I'm not gonna reprint the PDF and transfer the PDF to jpeg just to fix the Embeds... I'm not getting paid for this, after all.

I will happily take the blame for that!!

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

The question of how to handle a defiling mechanic conversion is the eternal forum fight ever since 3e was released.

• Defiling is the base arcane, or preserver is the base arcane
• Defiling is tempting because of power or tempting because its easier
• Defiling is or is not an addiction
• Greater emphasis should be placed on past fictional presentations, or placed on past mechanical presentations

Comforting to see it again!

 

[cbwjm]

The question of how to handle a defiling mechanic conversion is the eternal forum fight ever since 3e was released.

• Defiling is the base arcane, or preserver is the base arcane
• Defiling is tempting because of power or tempting because its easier
• Defiling is or is not an addiction
• Greater emphasis should be placed on past fictional presentations, or placed on past mechanical presentations

Comforting to see it again!

Yeah, it will be a constant forum fight, much like the presentation of psionics or the inclusion of a warlord in 5e.

I prefer the past mechanics (inconsistent in 2e since it changed between the original and revised editions of dark sun) and lore in that a defiler was just a wizard that levelled faster because defiling was the easy path to power (in a way this mirrors the 1e black robes from dragonlance who gained 9th level spells at 13th level while also levelling faster than the other two types of wizards of high sorcery. Sometimes, being evil really does pay). Defiling itself was an addictive use of power, this was shown more in the revised dark sun setting which had a defiler gather spell energy as they prepared their spells, possibly gaining far more spell slots available, preservers could also do this, but more than once per level could see them fall and become defilers, including a potential alignment shift (I'm reading through the revised book now, only reason why I know this).

I'd like to see something that alters spells and shows the corruption of the defiler, they used to gain penalties to Charisma as a means to show the air of corruption around them. I also prefer defiling to be something you add as you cast a spell rather than the gathering of energy while preparing spells used in the revised setting. From memory, the 3e take on defiling seemed pretty good to me, been a while since I've read through it though.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Yeah, it will be a constant forum fight, much like the presentation of psionics or the inclusion of a warlord in 5e.

oh man, at least the forum fights over whether being a defilers is established in a class vs established in a electable casting mechanic has been mostly calmed down.

There we’re fierce argument over how Sadira could possibly have gone back and forth from preserver to defiler and back again if the 1e rules didn’t let her.

 

[TheSword]

oh man, at least the forum fights over whether being a defilers is established in a class vs established in a electable casting mechanic has been mostly calmed down.

There we’re fierce argument over how Sadira could possibly have gone back and forth from preserver to defiler and back again if the 1e rules didn’t let her.

Luckily we’re in a high time of rulings not rules. So the true answer is, she had a generous DM

Two things I like about 5e that helps with some Dark Sun concepts.

Firstly it would be easy to have a preserver subclass that you lose and switch to a defiler subclass without ‘breaking’ the character. One of the key defiler abilities could be available to a preserver on the understanding that once they have used it 3 times they switch. Flaws could replicate the defiler penalties as well, much more satisfying than charisma modifiers.

Secondly, the way NPCs work means it’s easy to create a dragon by taking the wizard/sorcerer base and slapping psionics on. No complication there and none of the twisting we had to do in 3e to make it so.

Lastly the way slots are shared between disciplines means of psionics operate on the same level basis as other magic as in 3e then PC wanting to follower the psionic caster route could still do that. Perhaps a feat that lets you take a spell or two of you highest caster level from either class.