D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[Shardstone]

Do people who believe that Psionics should be identical spells believe that Ki Powers for a Monk (which are magical), or certain barbarian rages (storm, ancestor), or that sub-class abilities like the bard's various magical powers, or a Druid's various magical powers, or even Wildshape should all be spells too?

If not, what's wrong with having another class that does magical things without using the spell system?

 

[Steampunkette]

One can think of levels of the mind, each one resting on top of the preceding one.

• Rock mind: desire to exist
• Plant mind: desire to grow and flourish
• Beast mind: desire to move and interact
• Humanoid mind: desire to learn and create

Psionics is mainly the humanoid level of the mind, but includes the lower aspects of nature.
Primal is mainly the lower aspects, but includes the humanoids as part of nature.

Rocks... don't... they don't desire anything. They are inanimate. A rock at the bottom of the ocean and a rock at the top of a mountain are equally inert as the molten rock inside the world.

Similarly, plants don't have minds. They exist, sure. They propagate. But there is no more will or intention behind that propagation. No more than there is in a Virus.

A Psionicist cannot read the mind of a brick and get "I desire to exist" from it. Because there's no mind to read. But an Elemental is an animate being that may be made out of rock. And Earth Elementals typically have desires beyond "Exist".

The 5e Feywild is an inconsistent mix. Some texts give it a "nature" theme, and some texts give it an "arcane" theme. In both cases, the immaterial fey spirits are disconnected from the Material Plane.

I think I am happiest with the Eberron version of the Feywild, a "fairy tale" theme. In this sense, the fey is a "Twilight Zone" where stories and narratives take on a life of its own. It is fundamentally unnatural. But the Fey plane can includes stories about nature.

My only modification of the Eberron perspective is that these "stories" include stories about the future − and possible timelines. Thus, "fate" being the tapestry of timelines is an important aspect of the "Fae" as spirits of fate.

In any case, I view the Feywild as arcane, not primal.

Animism (primal) is absolutely about the Material World − and nowhere else.

I'm not referring to the Feywild when I talk about Fey Power. I'm talking about Primal Magics that summon or interact with fey beings, and fey powers that interact with nature and are a part of the fey, like a Dryad and her Tree. A given fey entity is a living creature and can have arcane power if it wants to. Or Psionicist levels. That's it's own thing.

 

[Yaarel]

Rocks... don't... they don't desire anything. They are inanimate. A rock at the bottom of the ocean and a rock at the top of a mountain are equally inert as the molten rock inside the world.

Similarly, plants don't have minds. They exist, sure. They propagate. But there is no more will or intention behind that propagation. No more than there is in a Virus.

A Psionicist cannot read the mind of a brick and get "I desire to exist" from it. Because there's no mind to read. But an Elemental is an animate being that may be made out of rock. And Earth Elementals typically have desires beyond "Exist".

I'm not referring to the Feywild when I talk about Fey Power. I'm talking about Primal Magics that summon or interact with fey beings, and fey powers that interact with nature and are a part of the fey, like a Dryad and her Tree. A given fey entity is a living creature and can have arcane power if it wants to. Or Psionicist levels. That's it's own thing.

To some degree, telekinesis to move a rock is mentally engaging the "mind" of the rock.

For psionics everything is mind.

 

[Stormonu]

Random thought:

Defilers create a 1 round Arms of Hadar like effect that gives them sorcery points for casting magic/regaining slots (more damage, more sorcery points? 5 damage = 1 sorcery point?). They do not recover spell slots on long rests, but only by defiling. Plant life gives something like 1 sorcery point per FULL 5' area consumed.

Preservers regain spells via long rest. No other effect.

 

[Rikka66]

Do people who believe that Psionics should be identical spells believe that Ki Powers for a Monk (which are magical), or certain barbarian rages (storm, ancestor), or that sub-class abilities like the bard's various magical powers, or a Druid's various magical powers, or even Wildshape should all be spells too?

If not, what's wrong with having another class that does magical things without using the spell system?

There are a few aspects to this.

-WoTC developers have suggested multiple times that feedback and polls indicate most players don't want psionics to run on a separate system from everyone else. So a lot of us assume any psionic class will operate similar to the Artificer (work like other spellcasters, just reflavor it) and we'll get more stuff like Soulknife/Psi Warrior.
-There is a big gap between minor abilities and the spellcasting system. That same gap would exist between minor abilities and a redone Psionic casting system with it's own list of spells/talents/disciplines/whatever. It's a matter of scope.

 

[Yaarel]

Do people who believe that Psionics should be identical spells believe that Ki Powers for a Monk (which are magical), or certain barbarian rages (storm, ancestor), or that sub-class abilities like the bard's various magical powers, or a Druid's various magical powers, or even Wildshape should all be spells too?

If not, what's wrong with having another class that does magical things without using the spell system?

Generally, any magical source can create spells, magical effects that arent spells, and nonmagical effects.

Spells are spells, including innate spellcasting and psionic spells.

An example of a nonspell magical ability, might be Paladin Aura of Protection. There is no problem to have a magical class that lacks spells. (As @Rikka66 notes, it is a matter of scope. If these magical class features are comparable to spells, then probably it is just better to use spell mechanics.)

Examples of a nonmagical effect are tricky. A simplest example is a Create Water spell. It is created by magic, but the water itself is nonmagical. It gets tricky when it is unclear whether class feature or a race trait would be suppressed by an Antimagic Field. For example, Dragon Breath is probably a nonmagical effect, even tho the ability to breathe fire was created magically.

 

[Shardstone]

Generally, any magical source can create spells, magical effects that arent spells, and nonmagical effects.

Spells are spells, including innate spellcasting and psionic spells.

An example of a nonspell magical ability, might be Paladin Aura of Protection. There is no problem to have a magical class that lacks spells. (As @Rikka66 notes, it is a matter of scope. If these magical class features are comparable to spells, then probably it is just better to use spell mechanics.)

Examples of a nonmagical effect are tricky. A simplest example is a Create Water spell. It is created by magic, but the water itself is nonmagical. It gets tricky when it is unclear whether class feature or a race trait would be suppressed by an Antimagic Field. For example, Dragon Breath is probably a nonmagical effect, even tho the ability to breathe fire was created magically.

So as long as its called magic, you're alright with psionics having their own sub-system?

 

[Remathilis]

Do people who believe that Psionics should be identical spells believe that Ki Powers for a Monk (which are magical), or certain barbarian rages (storm, ancestor), or that sub-class abilities like the bard's various magical powers, or a Druid's various magical powers, or even Wildshape should all be spells too?

If not, what's wrong with having another class that does magical things without using the spell system?

Here is my thoughts.

"Magic" manifests in a variety of mechanical ways: spells are the most common but you see things like class features (channel divinity, wild shape, invocations) that are also "magic" but not spells.

D&D used terms like Arcane, Divine, Primal, etc to describe how these effects originate, but they are 100% fluff and have no mechanical weight. Further, they aren't intrinsic to the class itself, as a subclass like the divine soul sorcerer reflavors the normally arcane sorcerer into a divine class.

Psionics is just another flavor description like Arcane or Divine; a way to describe why an ability functions. It can be a "spell" or it can be a class ability (such as the soul knife's psi-blades). And That works just fine in 99% of all D&D settings because it doesn't matter where the"magic" comes from as long as it's effect is balanced.

Except in Dark Sun. Dark Sun cares too much about where it comes from. Dark Sun wants to ban divine, corrupt arcane, limit primal and others and exalt psionics. Which doesn't work with 5e because there is no link between these terms and how the game handles magic.

To whit: most people would argue a sorcerer is an arcane class. It fits the aesthetic and has been described as such. In a Dark Sun game, it would be subjected to the defiling rules (if it were allowed at all, purists are a fickle group). However, not all sorcerers are Arcane. Divine Soul sorcerers are divine powered. Aberrant Mind sorcerers are Psionic. Arguments can be made about Shadow sorcerers using shadow magic or storm sorcerers using primal or elemental. If power source matters, every one of those subclasses could be subjected to different rules, despite being 95% the same class.

So the biggest problem is that classes don't neatly fit into power source boxes anymore. That makes designing rules to interact with them tricky if not impossible to future proof.

 

[Faolyn]

A thread looked into Large size some time ago.

It turns out, Large size is totally balanced in 5e.

In previous editions of D&D, the main problem with Large was the extra reach and the extra damage from multiple opportunity attacks.

However in 5e, the reason Large size is balanced is, there is only one reaction per round. So there can only be one opportunity attack. So the extra reach doesnt really matter.

Assuming they even have extended reach. Ogres and trolls are Large and have standard 5-foot reach (even though trolls are usually thought of as long-limbed). Whereas PC bugbears do have extended reach! Even though their NPC kin don't.

(I'm working on a Large-sized heritage for Level Up, and this post made me go double-check to see whether I needed to include extended reach for them. I don't.)

 

[Steampunkette]

To some degree, telekinesis to move a rock is mentally engaging the "mind" of the rock.

For psionics everything is mind.

I am sincerely uncertain how to respond to this without coming across as a complete jerk.

I think it shall suffice to say that I do not believe you understand how telekinetics work as a concept.

I'm certain you could run it that way in a game that you like. But it certainly does not reflect Athas or d&d in general. Or real world ideas behind telekinesis.