D&D 5E Do you find alignment useful in any way?

[Hexmage-EN]

Ah.

If "Law"=hierarchy, that is something quite different.

That really would be:
• egalitarianism versus hierarchy
• nomadic hunter-gatherer clan versus sedentary herder-gardener town
• family versus bureaucracy
• animism versus theism


And so on.

Speaking of bureaucracy, that Durkheim guy I mentioned earlier was one of the architects of the concept. He (naively) believed it would lead a true meritocracy where power was taken from kings and nobility who wield authority through birthright to people who were truly deserving of possessing it.

Durkheim's also interesting for that whole "Gilded Cage of Rationality" thing. He knew the systems he was helping create were going to suck for a lot of people, but he did it anyway because he believed they would inevitably dominate civilization through efficiency. Sounds like a LN or even mildly LE to me.

 

[Yaarel]

Speaking of bureaucracy, that Durkheim guy I mentioned earlier was one of the architects of the concept. He (naively) believed it would lead a true meritocracy where power was taken from kings and nobility who wield authority through birthright to people who were truly deserving of possessing it.

Durkheim's also interesting for that whole "Gilded Cage of Rationality" thing. He knew the systems he was helping create were going to suck for a lot of people, but he did it anyway because he believed they would inevitably dominate civilization through efficiency. Sounds like a LN or even mildly LE to me.

Heh, that is the thing about the human sciences. They are so accurate about complaining, yet often so misguided about "fixing".

 

[Yaarel]

he was helping create were going to suck for a lot of people, but he did it anyway because he believed they would inevitably dominate civilization through efficiency.

To be fair, I have a similar fatalism regarding Artificial Intelligence.

Fortunately, my rationalism has a mystical streak, and I am confident humans ultimately have a good destiny, despite the possibility of painful choices on the way there.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

@Hexmage-EN

If Law=hierarchy

It would mean there is no such thing as "Lolth". At least, she could not be Chaotic.

There's a subtle difference at play when looking at CE demon lords versus LE archdevils. Demon lords appoint themselves as overlords through sheer power and impose their whims on lessers who obey out of fear while waging war against their rivals (one 4E source also claimed that, should any one demon lord come to dominate the Abyss, the plane itself would create new demon lords to rival them).

Archdevils rule through a consistent authority composed of individuals who serve not out of fear, but because the system of the Hells tempts devils with the possibility that by conforming to and obeying authority one may eventually come to benefit from it themselves. All power and authority in the Hells flows from its absolute ruler, Asmodeus, and all Archdukes of Hell submit themselves to him (even when he can do things like transform Baelzebub into a slug and imprison Levistus in an iceberg) because through the portion of power and authority Asmodeus grants to those who know their place and serve they become more powerful in both personal might and influence than they would be otherwise.

Also, in general, you can trust a devil to keep their word and play by the rules, because the rules are what empowers them. Breaking the Law of the Hells means weakening the very thing they depend on for power and authority. I personally like to think that exploiting loopholes in Infernal law is okay for devils as it demonstrates a devil's ability to comprehend the law; I also like to think that by exposing loopholes and weaknesses the Law of the Hells is further refined and brought closer to perfection when they are patched up. Devils are not corrupt politicians, but true believers in the system.

Demon lords, in contrast, are not dependent on an outside authority for their power and do not have to be consistent or fair. They rule through personal power alone and war with each other to claim even more.

 

[Yaarel]

Demon lords appoint themselves as overlords through sheer power and impose their whims on lessers who obey out of fear.

Coercion, violence, and threat of violence is what "hierarchy" means.

A "doctrine of legitimate violence" is a (cynical) minimalist definition for the term "politics".

And laws and "enforcement" of laws are violence.

If Law=hierarchy, then Law is violent, and Chaotic cannot have hierarchy.

 

[Lanefan]

So I stand by my initial point, removing alignment from stat blocks is not censorship.

On this, speaking as a pro-alignment poster, I agree.

I would go even further and state that removing alignment is not the equivalent of the Satanic panic.

In and of itself, it is not: it's merely a single element within a bigger picture.

It's that bigger picture that is starting to show a few resemblances to ye olde panic days.

 

[Lanefan]

Or better, you can just indicate to players what behavious will get them booted out of the game.

That way, the cleric who is embezzling money from his church (but not the party) and the career swindler, don’t get lumped in with the guy who tortures NPCs for fun.

So the embezzler Cleric's in the clear provided he only targets NPCs? Not cool.

If the Cleric's got a history as an embezzler then who he targets next - whether PC or NPC - should make no difference; never mind that the PCs, being likely considerably richer than most NPCs, would soon make very inviting targets for this sort of thing.

And note I'm not suggesting any sort of ban on this character concept, I'm suggesting the opposite: let him target whoever he wants, whether PC or not. Once the other PCs catch on - and it's nigh-inevitable that they will - they can deal with it then, in character.

 

[Maxperson]

Exploring tombs and taking their riches casts shades of colonialism.

How do you figure? Tomb robbers have existed for as long as there have been tombs, and in every race/society that has had access to them.

 

[Maxperson]

Hence my mention of Lancelot and Galahad. 1e Deities has Average Knight of Renown and Knight of Quality as fighters. Arthur was also given levels as Paladin, but the Green Knight, Invisible Knight, Knight of Many Colors, Gawaine, Lamorak, Palomides, Pellinore, and Lyoness (that is, all of them except Lance, Gal, and Arthur) are given as Fighters. Are the standard knights able to detect evil, immune to disease, cure by a touch, turn undead, or have holy swords? Simply being on horseback doesn't seem near enough.


I'm guessing that none of the classes in the books match the inspiring characters perfectly. But trying to make an "Aragorn like character" from a Paladin seems bizarre if there's a ranger there. If nothing else, even if Aragorn is a Ranger with a splash of Paladin, the Dunedain feel a lot more like they'd have tracking than warhorses and holy swords and ability to divinely smite undead.

Did Aragorn turn them at Weathertop? Or was it Frodo's "O Elbereth Gilthoniel!" and the waving of torches that gave them no reason to stay after they had already left their mark on their target? Would any amount of training in any class have replaced his standing as the rightful king to do his deeds along the Paths of the Dead?

I'm also not aware of any time where he healed with a touch. He did use herbalism and the Athelas(kingsfoil) herb to heal, though.

 

[Maxperson]

Aragorn definitely doesn’t turn the Ringwraiths at Weathertop. He professes to not know exactly why they withdrew. The link with him as a paladin is, as far as I can tell, just his high charisma and ”hands of a healer”. But there’s no real reason to attribute the latter to a mystical ability more than his fostering and training in the House of Elrond, Middle Earth’s preeminent healer.
He’s got a lot of birthright things going for him that would apply no matter what class was a best fit.

The hands of the healer, though, was his superior knowledge of herbcraft. The Dunedain had been taught a lot by the elves and maiar. It would be like one of our doctors going back in time 200 years and bringing his medicines and antibiotics with him. He'd have hands of a healer, too.