D&D General Why do people like Alignment?

[James Gasik]

Another question. Why wouldn't a God want their Cleric to gain more power, especially at the expense of some random magic item?

 

[Lanefan]

Maybe this was brought up before and I missed it...
This was talking about the Commune spell, right?
The spell whose description starts with, "You contact a deity or a divine proxy and ask up to three questions ..."
So, I guess, never mind that the spell description has a solution for this - that gods have proxies to handle the small stuff.

You are presenting what seems to me to be a contradiction - a deity whose attention is stretched to its limits, but still has attention to spare for minutiae. The deity has to, and is capable of, handling millions of processes, but is then so stretched that it cannot tolerate waste, so it puts even more attention on that one guy, and how his requests are getting frivolous.

If the Commune spell is such a burden for a deity to handle... why do they make that spell available at all?

For those times when it is truly needed.

Think of it as more analagous to calling 911. When there's a true emergency, you call it; when there isn't, you leave it alone so other people can use it without you bunging up the line - there's a finite number of 911 operators, after all.

You don't call 911 to help you get the Frisbee off your roof every time the kids put it up there, and if you do the operator is fully justified in dropping your call. By the same token, a deity being bothered by frivolous Commune questions is fully justified in having the Cleric get no answer other than a busy signal.

 

[Lanefan]

It also assumes the diety doesnt have people for that stuff. I personally like the old 1ed way of it. 1 to 3rd are prayer books. Any cleric can memorize from prayer books. 4 to 7th lower level to higher level followers of the dirty , administrative Angels etc. 8th and 9th level the diety has to grant directly.

Right idea, wrong numbers.

1-2 are prayer books etc. 3-5 are divine minions, assistants, etc. 6-7 come from the deity direct.

Cleric spells in 1e only go to 7.

EDIT: Ninja'ed by @Maxperson

 

[pemerton]

Another question. Why wouldn't a God want their Cleric to gain more power, especially at the expense of some random magic item?

I think this is the most obvious response to the "frivolous" thing. If it's not frivolous to grant the cleric spells so that they can go off hunting and looting, why is it frivolous to help them extract all the power they can from the DoMT?

And if the Commune spell is able to give guidance as to other questions about treasure, why not about the DoMT. Conversely, if that is too trivial then so presumably is asking the god whether the loot is behind Door A or Door B - presumably a use of Commune that goes back to the invention of the spell!

 

[pemerton]

The AD&D PHB says this (p 30):

First, second, third, and even fourth level spells are granted to the cleric through meditation and devout prayer. This spell giving is accomplished by the lesser servants of the cleric's deity. Fifth, sixth, and seventh level spells can be given to the cleric ONLY by the cleric's deity directly, not through some intermediary source.​

The DMG says this (p 38):

prior to becoming a first level cleric, the player character received a course of instruction, served a novitiate, and has thoroughly read and committed to memory the teachings of and prayers to his or her chosen deity, so that the character is dedicated to this deity andis able to perform as a cleric thereof. It is this background which enables the cleric character to use first level spells.

Furthermore, continued service and activity on behalf of the player character's deity empower him or her to use second level spells as well, but thereafter another agency must be called upon.

Cleric spells of third, fourth, and fifth level are obtained through the aid of supernatural servants of the cleric's deity. That is, through meditation and prayer, the cleric's needs are understood and the proper spells are given to him or her by the minions of the deity.

Cleric spells of sixth and seventh level are granted by direct communication from the deity itself. There is no intermediary in this case, and the cleric has a direct channel to the deity, from whom he or she receives the
special power to cast the given spells of these levels.​

I haven't gone back to DDG and MotP, but my recollection is that they go with the DMG, except that DDG says that the cleric of a demigod received third, fourth and fifth level spells directly from their deity.

 

[mixmastashizz]

The AD&D PHB says this (p 30):

First, second, third, and even fourth level spells are granted to the cleric through meditation and devout prayer. This spell giving is accomplished by the lesser servants of the cleric's deity. Fifth, sixth, and seventh level spells can be given to the cleric ONLY by the cleric's deity directly, not through some intermediary source.​

The DMG says this (p 38):

prior to becoming a first level cleric, the player character received a course of instruction, served a novitiate, and has thoroughly read and committed to memory the teachings of and prayers to his or her chosen deity, so that the character is dedicated to this deity andis able to perform as a cleric thereof. It is this background which enables the cleric character to use first level spells.​

​

Furthermore, continued service and activity on behalf of the player character's deity empower him or her to use second level spells as well, but thereafter another agency must be called upon.​

​

Cleric spells of third, fourth, and fifth level are obtained through the aid of supernatural servants of the cleric's deity. That is, through meditation and prayer, the cleric's needs are understood and the proper spells are given to him or her by the minions of the deity.​

​

Cleric spells of sixth and seventh level are granted by direct communication from the deity itself. There is no intermediary in this case, and the cleric has a direct channel to the deity, from whom he or she receives the​

special power to cast the given spells of these levels.​

I haven't gone back to DDG and MotP, but my recollection is that they go with the DMG, except that DDG says that the cleric of a demigod received third, fourth and fifth level spells directly from their deity.

I thought it was generally understood the DMG supersedes the PHB where it conflicts based on being published later?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Other than The Fates, of course....
And a goddess of luck in Tyche...
And a goddess of chaos in Eris...
And a god of prophecy in Apollo...

Do those folks alter fate though? The Fates just know how it's going to go. Tyche and Eris don't necessarily know how its going to go, they just want it to go a certain way. And prophecy is very unreliable and open to interpretation.

Case in point: I see and understand your interpretation, but it's just one way. To alter fate IMO, you have to know what's going to happen and actively change it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Other than The Fates, of course....
And a goddess of luck in Tyche...
And a goddess of chaos in Eris...
And a god of prophecy in Apollo...

In fact, I'm pretty sure there are multiple times when one or more deities commandeer an oracle in order to shape the world to have the result they want. IIRC, Venus/Aphrodite specifically directs the Oracle at Delphi to tell Psyche's (unnamed) royal parents to sacrifice her, meaning she quite literally takes control of prophecy to make something happen. I know Hera does this at least once as well to some hero love-child of Zeus.