D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Flamestrike]

Man, I hear people talk about this a LOT.

I've literally never seen it. Every non-PBP game I've played, even getting from level 1 to level 2 takes 2-3 sessions minimum.

2-3 sessions to earn 300 XP?

 

[Flamestrike]

he's 12th level and the campaign ended or collapsed at level 9.

Of course it has.

Feats are optional! No-one plays past 8th! DMG adventuring day recommendations suck and no-one follows them! Hit points dont mean what they say they do RAW! No-one ever takes Short rests!

Etc etc etc.

I can point to to actual rules, but who cares I guess.

None of the above problems are RULES problems. They're meta problems that the DM is in charge of (allowing or disallowing feats, when the campaign ends, what hit points are or are not, rest and encounter frequencies etc).

The rules have literally nothing to do with those DM choices man. If you want to point the finger somewhere, do it at your DM (or if YOURE the DM, reconsider your choices you're making!).

 

[Minigiant]

Of course it has.

Feats are optional! No-one plays past 8th! DMG adventuring day recommendations suck and no-one follows them! Hit points dont mean what they say they do RAW! No-one ever takes Short rests!

Etc etc etc.

I can point to to actual rules, but who cares I guess.

None of the above problems are RULES problems. They're meta problems that the DM is in charge of (allowing or disallowing feats, when the campaign ends, what hit points are or are not, rest and encounter frequencies etc).

The rules have literally nothing to do with those DM choices man. If you want to point the finger somewhere, do it at your DM (or if YOURE the DM, reconsider your choices you're making!).

The issue is the rules were not built around the meta. The rules were built around the ideal.

This is a problem found in tabletop and video games.

And Like I said in many of my posts.: there is little official guidance for DMs to fix these problems. Many DMs rely of Youtubers and forums more than the DMG.

 

[Flamestrike]

The issue is the rules were not built around the meta.

No, the issue is you're not using the rules and ignoring them instead of making them conform to your meta.

Ive literally started a thread challenging people to prove this 'busted' nature of the caster v martial aspect of the game to me.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

2-3 sessions to earn 300 XP?

That's been my experience with all...four or five 5e games I've joined, yes. Completely different groups each time, if that's relevant. They all fell apart later for not-directly-related reasons.

Also, I wanted to build a little more on my above issues. Let's say we DO consider this 12th-level Variant Human Fighter. Firstly, you've made a small error: a 12th-level Fighter has 4 ASIs from her class features (one at level 4, 6, 8, and 12), and one from being a Variant Human. Total 5, not 6.

If she's got one, then surely her wizard-playing buddy is in the same boat: 12th-level Variant Human Wizard. That's a character with 4 ASIs, as opposed to the 5 that the Fighter has. But! The Wizard doesn't need GWM or any other feat for improving his combat capacity. So this equal-level Wizard could quite easily have (say) +2 Int, +2 Int, Prodigy, Skilled--effectively equivalent to what the Fighter has, once you have to shed one of those feats.

And now let's consider some spells, eh? A 12th-level Wizard can cast up to 6th level spells, and knows an absolute minimum of eight 1st-level spells and (unless they've chosen to pick lower-level spells) four each of every higher level. So! This Wizard can have access to (just picking out a few standouts): mass suggestion, programmed illusion, true seeing (one of these once a day); geas, legend lore, skill empowerment (any two uses, potentially three with Arcane Recovery); charm monster, divination (a ritual), fabricate (3 uses, up to 4 with AR); major image, speak with dead, tongues (3 uses, up to 5 with AR); detect thoughts, enhance ability, suggestion (3 uses, up to 6 with AR); comprehend languages (rit), disguise self, find familiar (rit), Tenser's floating disk (rit), unseen servant (rit) (4 uses, up to 8 with AR). All uses don't count ritual casting, and I have not allowed for this Wizard learning even a single spell from copying a scroll or another arcane caster's spellbook.

And I specifically made sure to include enough room for at least 1 combat spell of every level. This 12th-level, Int 20 Wizard can prepare 17 spells (5 Int mod + 12 Wizard levels). That gives two spells of every level, plus 5 flexible spells of any level you like--and in general you can skip preparing any of the ritual spells because those don't need to be cast in a single round anyway, which would let you prepare the vast majority of the above spells.

So...yeah. This Wizard can hand out Expertise in any skill at least once a day without compromising his combat capabilities, and throw on enhance ability (advantage on all checks for a chosen stat!) several times a day. Where's the Fighter's equivalent to that level of flexibility? Particularly when the Wizard can simply do more combat spells if the utility ones don't happen to be useful today?

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Except I want to play a Battlemaster, not be a Battlemaster for 20 seconds a day! When a Battlemaster is out of superiority dice he basically has no subclass.

If it's not doing it for you, toss in a simple house rule and 'fix' it. Maybe let the BM add his Int Mod to his initial number of Superiority Dice. Or maybe let him roll a Wisdom Save against some DC to get back a Superiority Die that has just been used. Or maybe let him get them back at the end of every battle. Or how about re-rolling the Superiority Die just used and if you get HIGHER than the result, you get it back (e.g., you roll a 2 on d8 for Commander's Strike, you roll another d8 and if you get 3 or higher, you get it back/it wasn't spent).

I fully admit this is a less than optimum choice, but it is there.

One thing about 5e is that it is very forgiving in regards to "rules tinkering".

Full Disclosure: I agree that the number of Superiority Dice are woefully low. It's not like any of the Maneuvers are "absolute game changers"...they are about as effective as Bardic Inspiration; a nice little bonus for something...but dice are fickle. I mean, spending your last Superiority Die to have the barbarian do some extra damage and that barbarian only getting +2 is....well, pretty sad! The Battlemaster COULD use a rework, officially, but not an "overhaul"; it does work perfectly fine...and is pretty cool, but it does need to have some means of 'regaining' those spent Superiority Dice other than being 18th level and having spent all your Superiority Dice when you roll Initiative. (well...not too bad if your group rolls Initiative every round...which I do...). I know if anyone ever wanted to play a Battlemaster in my group, their'd be some house rule I mentioned above (bonus dice based on a stat, or making some kind of roll to 'get back' a spent die, etc).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[EzekielRaiden]

If it's not doing it for you, toss in a simple house rule and 'fix' it.

Verging dangerously close to Oberoni there.

Edit: Also, very importantly, assuming that any putative 5e DM is willing to make this change for you. IME, 5e DMs are much less willing to make major changes like this than people overall expect them to be. I've seen some who will at least entertain the notion, but the vast majority disapprove of player-requested houserule or homebrew content. I would know; I tried rather hard to get into a game where I could test my Silver Pyromancer PrC, and less than a quarter of the games I applied for were okay with it, despite nearly all of them agreeing that it seemed reasonably well-balanced. (I was actually quite flattered at the compliments....but even those who liked it in principle usually said no.)

 

[pemerton]

None of the above problems are RULES problems. They're meta problems that the DM is in charge of (allowing or disallowing feats, when the campaign ends, what hit points are or are not, rest and encounter frequencies etc).

How is the GM in charge of when the campaign ends?

And even if a campaign reaches 12th level and the candidate battle master has the effectiveness you describe (which I'll leave to other 5e experts to debate) that doesn't change the play of the preceding 11 levels.

I also don't follow how the GM is in charge of encounters per rest. Resting, in 5e D&D, depends on the passage of time in the fiction; and there are a range of action declarations that player can make that affect the passage of time in the fiction, and the likelihood of a fight breaking out during that time.

 

[Flamestrike]

The Wizard doesn't need GWM or any other feat for improving his combat capacity.

Neither does the Fighter, but we just wanted to ensure he had what is considered to be the most broken Feat in 5E.

And now let's consider some spells, eh? A 12th-level Wizard can cast up to 6th level spells, and knows an absolute minimum of eight 1st-level spells and (unless they've chosen to pick lower-level spells) four each of every higher level. So! This Wizard can have access to (just picking out a few standouts): mass suggestion, programmed illusion, true seeing (one of these once a day); geas, legend lore, skill empowerment (any two uses, potentially three with Arcane Recovery); charm monster, divination (a ritual), fabricate (3 uses, up to 4 with AR); major image, speak with dead, tongues (3 uses, up to 5 with AR); detect thoughts, enhance ability, suggestion (3 uses, up to 6 with AR); comprehend languages (rit), disguise self, find familiar (rit), Tenser's floating disk (rit), unseen servant (rit) (4 uses, up to 8 with AR). All uses don't count ritual casting, and I have not allowed for this Wizard learning even a single spell from copying a scroll or another arcane caster's spellbook.

All of which use resources (slots) that take away from that Wizards Combat ability for the 6-8 combat encounters of that day.

Bump your Wizard up to 15th level, and bring him along to my adventure challenge in the other thread.

Lets see how he gets on next to a Fighter at 15th.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Verging dangerously close to Oberoni there.

Who? I didn't read all 24 pages...did I miss something? I missed something, didn't I. Yeah...I missed something.

Edit: Also, very importantly, assuming that any putative 5e DM is willing to make this change for you. IME, 5e DMs are much less willing to make major changes like this than people overall expect them to be. I've seen some who will at least entertain the notion, but the vast majority disapprove of player-requested houserule or homebrew content. I would know; I tried rather hard to get into a game where I could test my Silver Pyromancer PrC, and less than a quarter of the games I applied for were okay with it.

The 'fix' doesn't have to be a complete re-write or anything even noticeable. For example, the one idea of just "Battlemasters get a bonus number of Superiority Dice equal to their Intelligence Modifier". Done. It's the least intrusive and requires zero rules adjustments. It's, effectively, like the PC just taking a Short rest...once a day for 'free'.

For Players that "disapprove of..." houserules/homebrew, I always ask myself: "Er...just why are you playing this in stead of a computer game then?". One of the major points of a TTRPG is that it isn't set in stone and that the Players and DM's use their imaginations to do, well, whatever. Not "approving of" houserules is like someone not "approving of" someone choosing to use a blue pen over a black pen when signing their name. It's just...weird...

^_^

Paul L. Ming