D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[MerricB]

In D&D, its kinda slow to level up. IMX, its slower leveling up in milestone variants because usually even a whole adventure may not satisfy the DM's milestone requirements. But even with the official xp variants, it still takes roughly 1-2 full adventuring days to get a single level up.

With that in mind, its very difficult to maintain a campaign that spans 5-7 adventures since creating a single adventure takes so much effort even if its pre-made.

The intended rate of levelling up in D&D 5E (as explicitly stated in the rules) is:
Levels 1 & 2: gain a level after one session (4-hours)
Levels 3 through 20: gain a level after two to three sessions

So, to gain level 20 should take 36-53 four-hour sessions. You could do it in a year.

 

[Maxperson]

D&D, and 5E in particular, is asymmetrical when it comes to PCs versus enemies. Much of that higher than 12th level information in the PHB (spells especially) gets used by the DM with things like Archmage enemies or powerful outsiders. There's an argument to be made, then, that such information should exist in the DMG or MM. But that's inefficient because some number of player groups are going to use high level characters. As such, there's really no reason NOT to keep it in the PHB.

This is a very good point.

 

[Yaarel]

I think the boring-ness of the 16-20 levels for most classes, together with the "GAME ENDS HERE" feeling to level 20 in 5E reallly makes the "smaller market" thing self-fulfilling. The other big factor is that people are very resistant to starting at higher levels. If 5E had a suggestion that it was, say, fine to start at level 10, and maybe good actual rules (rather than frankly shoddy "I guess you could..."-style "guidelines") for doing that (maybe random-generating a previous adventuring career, could be fun), and it was considered normal and okay, then I think those levels would see more play. Add in some actual 20-30 rules and they'd see a ton more.

4E was interesting because it fully planned for 1-30, and really leaned into it. If it wasn't for the fact that the proliferation of powers eventually bogged combat down to a crawl, it would have been awesome for it.

If they intentionally rethought the upper tiers for "superhero" settings, there could be alot of interesting things to do, and a ready market for it.

 

[Malmuria]

The intended rate of levelling up in D&D 5E (as explicitly stated in the rules) is:
Levels 1 & 2: gain a level after one session (4-hours)
Levels 3 through 20: gain a level after two to three sessions

So, to gain level 20 should take 36-53 four-hour sessions. You could do it in a year.

I wonder if that's how fast actual play groups level up. I've found that if you do xp by the book (i.e. for combat), you have to have a very combat-focused game to level up that quickly. You could do it by milestones if you don't need leveling up to happen at a particular story beat (our characters have spent 2+ sessions doing things in the same in-game day). There's also the issue for how long it takes a player to get to know their character abilities enough for them to be comfortable with leveling up and understanding how to use new abilities.

 

[Maxperson]

Then make him a low level aristocrat. It seems giving high levels to npcs is a way to pretend to have a simulated world but actually no, this guy is too tough to kill.

it’s akin to having dinosaurs attack your players when they venture off the path.

Some leaders ARE high level, though.

 

[MerricB]

One problem seems to be that by 15th level, a group of 4 to 6 well prepared characters can take on a single one of the traditional top dog monsters. You can of course face off against groups of high power enemies after that, but that really stretches the narrative consistency of the game world. The best thing I've heard about high level play is "the same as always, but with bigger numbers".

That's only a facet of how top-level monsters are designed, not that high-level play isn't achievable.

(Says Merric, who ran Age of Worms in 3E to level 21, two 4E campaigns to level 30, and is currently at level 16 in his 5E campaign - with three segments of the Rod of Seven Parts yet to find!)

 

[Malmuria]

If they intentionally rethought the upper tiers for "superhero" settings, there could be alot of interesting things to do, and a ready market for it.

Godbound looks like an interesting game that takes this kind of thing seriously, but I've never played it

 

[Don Durito]

Starting games at higher levels is always going to be an issue for people, precisely because it's higher levels.

Games tend to work more efficiently closer to the beginning and lose efficiency and gain complexity as you work through them. It's almost impossible to avoid unless you stop giving players new things, or only give them improvements that are scaling effects of old things. But players don't want that, they want new things.

Really, the best way to handle high level play, if you only want to focus on high level play, is to make a game where level 1 is effectively 10th level or 15th level, or in other words a starting character is as simple mechanically as a 1st level character (or more likely a 3rd level one).

Short of that, it's appeal is always going to be less, and the number of players will always drop off.

I do feel there is a gap in the market for a D&Dalike game that focuses specifically on this tier of play.

 

[MerricB]

I wonder if that's how fast actual play groups level up. I've found that if you do xp by the book (i.e. for combat), you have to have a very combat-focused game to level up that quickly. You could do it by milestones if you don't need leveling up to happen at a particular story beat (our characters have spent 2+ sessions doing things in the same in-game day). There's also the issue for how long it takes a player to get to know their character abilities enough for them to be comfortable with leveling up and understanding how to use new abilities.

Well, Milestones are popular.

I give out a lot of xp for non-combat activities, but I do agree, many actual groups level up slower. Probably.

Cheers!

 

[Malmuria]

Why would you get worn out? And if you're worn out playing D&D, how is playing yet more D&D at low levels any less wearing?

because players want to try new characters, new stories, and new settings?