D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Alzrius]

So if the army is stupid enough to send all their men in fireball formation (or meteor storm formation) it's not going to end well for them. But let's say they send a squad every hour on the hour. It won't take that long for them to wear down the PC, it's a simple numbers game. The wizard has to sleep sometime and they only cast fireball* a dozen times a day. I mean sure they can teleport somewhere (maybe, in my campaign they could potentially smuggle in someone to cast a spell that could stop that), but then their home base gets ransacked. Rinse and repeat.

Their "home base" is their private demiplane. Needing to sleep doesn't count for much when you have bound devils protecting you. Or when you can just open a gate to the Abyss in their barracks after scrying on the place. Or any of a hundred other options that a 20th-level wizard has that a couple hundred 1st- and 2nd-level fighters don't.

All of the arguments that a wizard (or sorcerer) can take over the world relies on a massive amount of cheese that I would never allow in my campaign that let's them somehow amass an army that has effectively no cost. I just don't buy it.

The cheese is baked into the crust game at that level, which is kind of the point.

...actually, no, it wasn't the point. The point, or at least my point, was that high-level characters are always a political consideration. I'm not sure why your responded back with "no, a high-level wizard can't take over a kingdom!"

 

[Oofta]

You seem to be assuming that the PC is making any kind of demands. Very often rulers just want to stay on the PC's good side. Keep him happy and maybe he'll assist in defense or at the very least, not interfere at all. Piss him off with an assassin that fails(good chance against a high level PC) and maybe you and your family end up dead before the PC falls, IF the PC falls.

Maybe, but most rulers have to balance the needs and demands of multiple factions and powers. A single individual, no matter how powerful, may not mean much.

 

[Alzrius]

Maybe, but most rulers have to balance the needs and demands of multiple factions and powers. A single individual, no matter how powerful, may not mean much.

When you're powerful enough, you do mean that much. It's how a BBEG can threaten an entire kingdom/world/plane.

 

[Oofta]

Their "home base" is their private demiplane. Needing to sleep doesn't count for much when you have bound devils protecting you. Or when you can just open a gate to the Abyss in their barracks after scrying on the place. Or any of a hundred other options that a 20th-level wizard has that a couple hundred 1st- and 2nd-level fighters don't.

The cheese is baked into the crust game at that level, which is kind of the point.

...actually, no, it wasn't the point. The point, or at least my point, was that high-level characters are always a political consideration. I'm not sure why your responded back with "no, a high-level wizard can't take over a kingdom!"

They can't automatically take over a kingdom. How much influence they have depends on a wide variety of factors.

In any case, I was just making a note that I disagree that a 20th level caster is a demigod. Feel free to differ, I don't really care that much.

 

[Alzrius]

They can't automatically take over a kingdom. How much influence they have depends on a wide variety of factors.

In any case, I was just making a note that I disagree that a 20th level caster is a demigod. Feel free to differ, I don't really care that much.

I don't think anyone initially suggested those points prior to you seeking to rebut them.

 

[Oofta]

I don't think anyone initially suggested those points prior to you seeking to rebut them.

It was just a random comment based on other threads that stated that a high level sorcerer could take over the world.

How much influence a single individual has ... I just don't think it would be that much in many cases. They're just one individual. In the grand scheme of things they just aren't that important compared to all the other factions.

 

[Don Durito]

I don't think anyone initially suggested those points prior to you seeking to rebut them

I think I said something about a 20th level Wizard being a demigod on account of being able to cast Wish. (Which to me seems pretty fair). I would have thought it was obvious that I meant it pretty loosely.

I didn't say anything about taking over a kingdom, although obviously that would depend on how you set up the kingdom. (It seems a pointless argument - we would have to make a lot of assumptions about what a D&D kingdom is before we could even start arguing - yes I know there was a thread about it - it seemed singularly uninteresting to me).

Although of course in Mr Norrell and Jonathan Strange a high level wizard returns to England from the realm of Faerie and basically takes over the North of England which he rules for the next 300 years before mysteriously vanishing.

 

[Faolyn]

I'm still hoping for Immortal rules.

 

[ph0rk]

Heracles was a demigod.

If you don’t think a 20th level sorcerer is roughly on par with that, why? And, importantly, what is your definition of demigod?

Heracles did not claim a kingdom because he didn’t feel lIke it, not because he was not capable.

If you need on-call demigods of another sort to prevent another demigod from claiming a kingdom, that sort of makes the point.

 

[Maxperson]

It was just a random comment based on other threads that stated that a high level sorcerer could take over the world.

How much influence a single individual has ... I just don't think it would be that much in many cases. They're just one individual. In the grand scheme of things they just aren't that important compared to all the other factions.

Most of those factions might be able to threaten a village or town, at best. Some of them maybe even a city. That one individual can threaten all the villages, towns and cities. He's mobile enough to hit where and when he wants. He basically is a danger to the entire country and rulers know this.

Vizier: "My liege, the army stands ready to march on our neighbor to the north."
King: "Send the army down the straight road to attack Zemuth."
Vizier: "My liege, the Archmage Myt E. lives in a tower near the border there. An army approaching his tower might be taken badly."
King: "That's very true. Very well, send the army down the somewhat windy road to attack Plukor. It's almost as juicy as Zemuth. It's also a bit farther from the capitol garrisons, so they will have a harder time responding."

Such a PC will have a political impact, even if he never speaks to the government. They have to consider him, even if they ultimately decide to take the risk.