D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Don Durito]

I think if I did XP by combat levelling up would actually be very slow. It takes a long time to get through all those combats.

 

[jmartkdr2]

For those of you who play higher level games, what about the high level content in the phb do you like? Most classes just seem to get improved or scaled-up versions of their signature class abilities (e.g. song of rest d10 then d12, extra attack, more uses of a particular feature, etc.). A common complaint I see is that there isn't a lot of customization past a certain level.

If you don't use the features, the material for the higher levels makes the phb a bit more difficult to navigate, as every class/subclass has higher level features and there's quite a few spells in the 6-9 level range interspersed with the spells you actually end up looking up. For those who do like the higher levels, it seems that the phb content isn't doing the work of creating interesting gameplay at those levels. So from this perspective, it seems like it might be worth it to make a "basic" phb going to level 10 or 12, and then an "advanced" phb with prestige classes, feats, domain rules, etc.

High-level play is really fun for full casters - 7th+ level spells do some crazy awesome stuff. They're not the same as upcasting.

For other characters, a lot of the cool stuff to do comes form either leadership (kings can do a lot even without magic just because armies mean a lot of labor) or through artifacts and/or legendary items.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Why does everyone conflate political influence with high level? In the real world are people ascending to high office based on how good they are on beating people up?

Because if you don't control the army, you don't get to be in charge any more. CF Egypt's recent history, for one of many examples.

 

[Oofta]

That's what Contingency and Clone are for.

And it's not whether the combined might of a country can take out a high level PC, it's that it's often not worth the resources to do so and better to just work with the high level individual politically.

True, but again it depends on several things. What does the PC want? What are they willing to do if they do not get what they want? What kind of resources does the kingdom have or have access to? It may be cheaper to send a small army of ninja assassins to take out the wizard than to give in to their demands.

Those things are going to vary from campaign to campaign.

 

[Maxperson]

High-level play is really fun for full casters - 7th+ level spells do some crazy awesome stuff. They're not the same as upcasting.

For other characters, a lot of the cool stuff to do comes form either leadership (kings can do a lot even without magic just because armies mean a lot of labor) or through artifacts and/or legendary items.

What's more, there's the capstone ability AND you've presumable used your ASIs at lower level, so you can start taking feats(assuming feats are allowed). Plus more powerful and fun magic items.

 

[Maxperson]

True, but again it depends on several things. What does the PC want? What are they willing to do if they do not get what they want? What kind of resources does the kingdom have or have access to? It may be cheaper to send a small army of ninja assassins to take out the wizard than to give in to their demands.

You seem to be assuming that the PC is making any kind of demands. Very often rulers just want to stay on the PC's good side. Keep him happy and maybe he'll assist in defense or at the very least, not interfere at all. Piss him off with an assassin that fails(good chance against a high level PC) and maybe you and your family end up dead before the PC falls, IF the PC falls.

 

[Yaarel]

Godbound looks like an interesting game that takes this kind of thing seriously, but I've never played it

"Immortals" of various kinds, who are powerful epic beings, like Superman or an Archfey, are awesome.

But I dislike "gods" flavor, because I find worshiping people and being worshiped by people to be cringeworthy.



Each tier feels quite different from the others.

• 0: Formative, highschool

• 1-4: Basic, apprentice, college student
• 5-8: Expert, adventurer, journeyer, squire, professional
• 9-12: Champion, knight

• 13-16: Master, noble, chief, founder, arch, archon
• 17-20: Legend
• 21-24: Immortal, epic

Each tier from level 13 and higher are valuable in their own right.

 

[MerricB]

Because if you don't control the army, you don't get to be in charge any more. CF Egypt's recent history, for one of many examples.

Most of history.

 

[Oofta]

Well, the point was that someone that powerful is a factor in political considerations regardless of their intent. But in terms of "the might of an entire kingdom," that really depends on the kingdom in question, since there's no baseline for these things.

Take, for example, the Kingdom of Furyondy in Greyhawk. According to WGR4 The Marklands, the military strength of one of their provinces looks like this:

A quick breakdown of the abbreviations (omitting specifics like weapons and armor equipped, etc.):

LI: Light infantry, human fighters level 1 to 2.
MI: Medium infantry, same as light infantry but with slightly better weapons and armor.
HI Heavy infantry, same as medium infantry but with slightly better weapons (including some ranged weapons) and armor, officers are level 4+.

LC: Light cavalry, humans fighters level 1 to 2 on light warhorses, officers are level 3+.
MC: Medium cavalry, same as light cavalry but with slightly better weapons and armor, horses have barding.
HC: Heavy cavalry, human fighters level 2 to 3, better weapons and armor than medium cavalry, officers are levels 4 to 9.

E: The prefix "E" indicates an elite unit; fighters have a minimum of 6 hit points per die, morale is improved by 1 point, there's a 2% chance per level of a character having a magic item, and a 50% chance of the unit having an animal handler with 1d4+4 war dogs.

Now, this is only one of seven provinces in the kingdom, and while they're not all the same, we can presume that if you multiplied the above by seven you'd have a rough idea of Furyondy's strength. What you get is a large number of very low-level fighters, most of whom have no magic items, and who - depending on the edition, as well as the preparations of a high-level character with various options (particularly spellcasters) - are likely not going to be able to put up much of a concerted fight.

So if the army is stupid enough to send all their men in fireball formation (or meteor storm formation) it's not going to end well for them. But let's say they send a squad every hour on the hour. It won't take that long for them to wear down the PC, it's a simple numbers game. The wizard has to sleep sometime and they only cast fireball* a dozen times a day. I mean sure they can teleport somewhere (maybe, in my campaign they could potentially smuggle in someone to cast a spell that could stop that), but then their home base gets ransacked. Rinse and repeat.

All of the arguments that a wizard (or sorcerer) can take over the world relies on a massive amount of cheese that I would never allow in my campaign that let's them somehow amass an army that has effectively no cost. I just don't buy it.

*the number of spells 3rd level or higher a 20th level wizard gets. Obviously there are spells other than fireball.

 

[Maxperson]

So if the army is stupid enough to send all their men in fireball formation (or meteor storm formation) it's not going to end well for them. But let's say they send a squad every hour on the hour. It won't take that long for them to wear down the PC, it's a simple numbers game. The wizard has to sleep sometime and they only cast fireball* a dozen times a day.

Why would the Wizard stay there and allow that strategy to work? You kill the first X squads and then Teleport or Plane Shift away. Then you come back on your own terms and start laying waste to random areas of the country so the army can't respond and the assassins can't find you. Eventually the king of the count.......rubble will sue for peace and offer a lot to get the PC to stop, including rebuilding the Wizard's home and giving back his stuff.