D&D 5E (+) What would you want for 5e Dark Sun?

[Steampunkette]

I think the Dragonlance topic of the same name is pretty great and I'd like to follow through a similar course with Dark Sun under the following precepts:

1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

2) Dark Sun has a ton of Systems Changes. From Defiling to Psionics to Environmental Survival. How drastically would you want to see those systems altered, or perhaps do you have ideas on how they could be carried forward? Or do you think that such changes should even be -applied- to a modern table sensibility due to the preponderance of roll-playing as opposed to role-playing in modern game design?

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I'll go first.

Narrative Changes for Modern Sensibilities:

• More Female Sorcerer-Kings.
  • On Athas there were only 3 female sorcerer-kings. Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy, and Yarmuke. And Yarmuke was destroyed by Hamanu who also wiped her city from the world.
  • Thankfully, most of the Sorcerer-Kings gender is pretty irrelevant to who they are and what they accomplish. So making Oronis, Tectuktitlay, or even Andropinis (Who has the most masculine name of them all, Man-Penis) into Female Characters wouldn't actually change much of anything.
  • Could even have one of the Sorcerer-Kings be transgender. Nibenay presents a draconic form and largely hides from the public eye. It could be interesting if that draconic form were feminine.
• LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.
  • I don't mean big and broad-ranging LGBTQ Lobbyists. I'm talking about smaller organizations of protection. Athas is a harsh place and having trans characters know that, for example, a building with a painted Kank's Head on the front wall wall is a safe space could be interesting. It would also set Athas aside from other settings as one that is harsh, but not without it's mercies.
  • Similarly, an alliance of people with different sexualities creating a group-atmosphere of protection and solidarity might be nice in a cruel world. Like maybe no one cares if some courtier is slipping into silk-sheets with courtiers of similar genders, or whether gladiators are coupling in the barracks between matches, but there's still plenty of reason for abundant caution and escape plans and the like for when bigots -do- rear their ugly heads
  • Though it would also be kind of great to just have no societal stigmas tied to LGBTQ+ existence, of course.
• Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.
  • 5e D&D tries to keep slavery in the hands of evil people. Which is why the Drow are totally willing to enslave you at the start of Out of the Abyss. The main thrust of slavery in modern fantasy is that it exists, it is evil, and only evil people enslave others.
  • Therefore having slavery as a thing in the setting would still work, but the players would be actively encouraged to fight and kill slavers when possible/reasonable, and free any slaves they find. Which is what good people should do in any setting.
• Points of (Dim) Light?
  • Athas has always been a place with a handful of real "Towns" and a few villages scattered across the sands between them, often 2-3 days travel apart (On foot) and usually plagued by cannibal Elves, cannibal Thri-Kreen, and cannibal Halflings. Because, honestly, cannibalism is just super popular as a dining option on Athas.
  • This sort of physical structure lends itself well to a Points of Light campaign. And, honestly, making that the style du jour for Athas could fit really, -really-, well. So long as the lights are dim. So long as the safety is fleeting, the comfort expensive, and the danger swift to return.
• Ethnic Variety
  • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.

Systems Changes:

• Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.
  • 5e's "All magic is just magic" is just not good for Athas. Athas uses Defiling and Preserving as a powerful narrative element, and one that Clerics and Druids are incapable of doing because their power doesn't defile.
  • Athas would need to break the "Weave Narrative" to work. Different types of magic -need- to be different to interact with this core identity of the setting.
• Psionics as Default
  • A Psionicist Class (I love KibblesTasty's) would be great. Especially one that takes cantrip-casting to heart and builds off of it.
  • Probably a Psionic-Warrior option or something similar as well. Likely as a Subclass of Fighter or maybe Ranger?
  • Maybe just a whole mess of Psionic Subclasses in general.
  • Definitely a ton of Wild Talents as Feats.
• Defiling as Default
  • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
  • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
  • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.
• Travel Mechanics
  • Traveling from place to place isn't hard, really. Pick a direction and go. Getting there -alive- is the trick.
  • Heat Mechanics, Environmental Hazards, Dangerous Monsters, and most importantly LIMITED RESOURCES.
  • Water isn't always available on Athas. And even when you -can- get some it's often dirty.
  • Some sort of mechanical structure that makes survival against the World into it's own unique danger layered on top of everything else would be spectacular.

Power Level

• Stronger Characters. Harsher Challenges.
  • Athasian characters have been stronger than those of other settings, often with less magical power available. Previous editions handled this with higher attribute scores, which is also an option but consider replacing Magic Items with "Heroic Power"
  • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
  • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
  • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24
• Bigger Stats
  • Maybe give players their level 4 ASI at level 1? Or their level 8 at level 1 so they just don't get one of the two during leveling.
  • This would keep their overall power level similar while boosting them at low-level play before they can play into the "Heroic Power" system.
• Wild Talent at level 1?
  • Wild Talents are an important part of Athasian culture. Not -everyone- has them, but enough people do that it's just considered normal.
  • Maybe give all players a single level 1 "Free Feat" which can be a Wild Talent or not, as they personally prefer.
• Interesting Weapon and Armor Rules.
  • In addition to having some really cool and slightly freaky weapons, Athas also had rules relating to Bone, Stone, and Wooden weapons that probably should be updated.
  • Weapon Breakage was a common problem for Athasian Heroes who would often see their favorite Carrikal break off in the thick armored hide of a Braxat or crushed under the bulk of a rampaging Mellikot.
  • Armor/Shield Breakage was also an issue, but slightly (SLIGHTLY) less common. Maybe give players the ability to actively sacrifice shields and armor to negate a critical hit altogether, or something? Not sure.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Yaarel]

The elementals are both in the Material Plane and in the Water Plane.

Perhaps it is better to understand this Water Plane as simply the same thing as any water anywhere in the Material Plane. As such, the Material water itself comes to be understood as a "plane" because water elementals can move from water body to water body, similar to the way Druids can move from tree to tree. There are elementals in the "between spaces" among these bodies of water. In some sense, the Plane of Water is a kind of demiplane accessible from the Material Plane.



Awkwardly, with regard to the Cleric class, the 2e Dark Sun treats powerful elementals as if gods. Defacto the Cleric worship them and depends on them for spells. This pseudo-worship conflicts with the godless themes of Dark Sun.

However, in 5e, the Cleric can be a cosmic force Cleric. Thus the 5e elemental Cleric views each element as an impersonal cosmic principle. (Compare the Daoist impersonal principles of yang-yin, and the five elemental ways of moving). These 5e Clerics are akin to alchemists. The elemental cosmic forces are sacred principles, whose harmony, life depends on.

Thus, the Clerics that are in tune with the magical properties of one element, tend to be allies with its respective elementals. There is no servitude in this relationship. There is much common cause.

Where the divine Cleric is abstract and impersonal, the primal Druid is concrete and personal.

The Druid helps facilitate the wellbeing of a local community of minds of natural features, including landscape formations, plants of any kind, beasts, and humanoids. Each member is a "who", not a "what". The Druid relates to any feature of nature similarly to humanoids. Nearby elementals are also part of this closeknit community. Each feature of nature is a person, and the Druid relates to them like humanoids. But different features have different needs and different desires.

The mind of a local pond is a kind of water elemental. The mind of a distinctive rock formation is a kind of earth elemental. These elementals are part of the Material Plane.

 

[Steampunkette]

@Yaarel please stop trying to apply real world religions to Athas... It may help you to better conceive of the setting but it's also against forum rules to discuss real world religions.

The Elementals provide power to Clerics not because they're Gods but because they're incredibly powerful elementals. In 2e terms they were MASSIVE Elemental monsters with huge scores and massive power, not unlike a fully empowered Dragon.

They're able to grant Clerics power because they're able to do so. Because that's what the setting dictates.

Maybe it's because they're "Closer" since they exist on the same plane of existence. Would explain why the Sorcerer Kings can grant Templars magic even though -they- are not gods, either.

Or maybe their magic just works differently than on other worlds. After all, the whole structure of Priestly Magic on Athas was a massively different set of Spheres than the standard AD&D 2e spheres, where even the spells that aren't elemental in nature (Like Cure Wounds) became part of one of the five spheres. Fire, Earth, Air, Water, and Cosmic.

The standard spell spheres?

All
Animal
Astral
Charm
Combat
Creation
Divination
Elemental
Guardian
Healing
Necromantic
Plant
Protection
Summoning
Sun
Weather

Astral was the smallest Sphere, by the way. It had 2 spells in it. Plane Shift and Astral Spell.

It'd fit. Since Arcane Magic is by it's nature Destructive to the environment and Druids are Spirit-Allies in the setting while Psionics is it's own -whole- thing...

 

[Faolyn]

OK, so I'm waaay behind already.

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I think that to keep the deadliness of Dark Sun, they should keep the monsters stronger and the PCs where they are. They don't need extra ASIs or anything like that. Originally, DS gave the daring suggestions of starting at 3rd level, because PCs were squishy and had far fewer abilities than they do now. Thanks to archetypes, probably most groups already do start at 3rd and have lots of powers. A 3rd-level 2e wizard had two 1st-level spells and one 2nd-level spell per day, and that was basically it. A 3rd-level 5e wizard has literally double that number of spell slots, can regain one of those slots with arcane recovery, can cast any spell they have prepared as long as they have the slots, can cast as many ritual spells as they want to, and has infinite cantrips and an archetype ability.

Also, I would hope that the writers would include more environmental effects, which themselves can be pretty deadly in such an environment. (Quick, make some Dark Sun LU-style regions!)

• LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.

I don't really see this. It doesn't feel like the sort of setting that has these types of organizations. Or any social organizations, actually. Now, OK, I could be completely wrong on this account; I don't know much about DS, but I never saw it as the type of place that would have anything more social than a tavern.

And, well, I think it would likely be easier to simply say that the people of Athas don't subscribe to the type of toxic beliefs that cause homophobia and transphobia. If you're physically strong enough to survive in the wasteland, or you're physically on the wimpy side but can kill someone with your brain, you're clearly tough enough, no matter your gender or orientation. Just don't try to eat other people.

Now that being said, I could easily see something like this in Planescape, if only because it's already a setting with lots of organizations and clubs. Having people gather because of their identity and sexuality would simply be another reason to get together. There's a bit of precedent, with Cirily the firre trying to start an anti-Prime movement, so it's easy to see that somebody, even someone who isn't an always-evil fiend, might develop some bigoted philosophy. (Actually, I can picture it: a Believer of the Source who develops the idea that you have to have lots of children to perpetuate the cycle of achieving godhood, and decides that since LGBT+ people "can't have children," like some real-world idiots believe, they're disrupting this precious cycle.)

• Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.

As long as they get rid of the forced-breeding programs for muls, I'm fine with it. It's an evil that can be fought. I don't know what the laws are like in the cities in DS, but I imagine that as long as the PCs aren't starting a city-wide revolt or mass-executing slavers in the streets, the PCs can get away with killing slavers.

• Points of (Dim) Light?

Agreed. The setting is basically built for this.

• Ethnic Variety
  • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.

Also agreed... although I imagine that there will be people who complain. Not that I particularly care about those people.

Well, blond hair and blue eyes might still exist, if uncommonly, but skin color at least should be darker in general.

It might be interesting if pale skin--because I've seen some of the DS art by Brom that has very pale people in it--was indicative of something, though. Being a powerful defiler or psionicist or something, like having that level of power leeches the life and color from you. Something evil, in the same way that vampires are traditionally very pale as well.

• Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.

Agreed. I would be interested in knowing if WotC would even publish a setting where they flat out say "these classes don't exist here."

I do like the idea of defiling as a default.

• • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
  • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
  • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24

What I would prefer is if people could effectively awaken magical powers in their items (by inadvertently investing them with psionic power, perhaps). You are such a good fighter that your blade becomes stronger and more powerful. It then might only work in your hands, or require someone of similar mindset to attune to it, or something like that. The abilities could start out small--your weapon never breaks, even if it's made out of chitin or bone--and eventually grow as you do.

Of course, there's also the idea of adapting the supernatural gifts from Theros, or granting epic boons at lower levels, for something similar to what you're suggesting.

 

[cbwjm]

I always thought the clerics in dark sun were drawing on the elemental planes rather than elementals themselves.

I probably wouldn't change much for dark sun, using the 4e campaign setting as the primary source for updating. I'd remove the Feywild from the setting though. Much as I love the Feywild, something about it just doesn't fit the image of Dark Sun I have in my mind.

I'd probably remove a lot of classes as well. No artificer, bard, or paladin, cleric would still exist but with an elemental theme. I think I'd like to see 4 new subclasses brought in for the setting, even though I admit that some of the domains already fit an element. Maybe bards could stay but they, like the other arcane classes would be subject to whatever preserving/defiling rules existed. Speaking of, I'd definitely want to see a defiling mechanic. Not a subclass of preserver/defiler but a mechanic that can see two invokers following different paths.

I think that warlocks could fit as specifically templar following the sorcerer kings. Others have already mentioned it and I think it is a good idea.

I'd like to see psionics, though I'm not sure I'd need a full class, it could just as easily be a supernatural gift-like ability that everyone has. A small power that can be used a couple of times per day and that, maybe, grows in power as you level. Maybe I'd follow 4e for these powers as well mining the psionic classes for ideas so that the base power is usable at will but you have some psionic points that can be spent to boost the power.

New races/subraces of course. I'd remove the aasimar, tieflings, half-orcs (and orcs), and gnomes, and plenty of others. First two due to Athas being cut off from the planes, second two due to history. Might make specific subraces for each allowed race and present the entire race entry as a single entity (i.e., here is the elf rather than the following elven subrace is available on Athas)

Dark sun is a cool setting, I'd love to see it come back.

 

[Faolyn]

It would imply that Elemental Clerics are either Plentiful (Which isn't accurate to the setting) or that they can create a lot of water (Which isn't accurate to the setting). In either case it requires some big changes to have Water Clerics providing water to a whole community.

Make this for Level Up instead of 05e, coz LU nerfed create water.

But what I want to know is if anything should be done with all the halfling biotech/life-shaped creations. Or is that just way off in the distance and not to be cared about.

 

[Faolyn]

So, you're saying we should ban the iconic, standard, PHB fiend warlock from the whole game, because "people generally don't play on the good guy's side and call out to 'Daddy BBEG' for their powers". Warlocks, by definition, are people "driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power, which compels them into their pacts and shapes their lives. This thirst drives warlocks into their pacts and shapes their later careers as well". Sounds like bad guys to me, yet you see them in every game, saving the world from evil. What's the real difference here between draining eldritch knowledge to power yourself from a fiend and from a Sorcerer-King?

Mostly flavor, I'd imagine. But in recently rereading the 2e Monstrous Compendiums for Dark Sun, there appear to be neither fiends of any sort nor fey on Athas. There are, however, a few things that might qualify as GOO-adjacent. Of all the current warlock archetypes, the only ones that seem really appropriate--without reskinning--would be GOO, Hexblade, and Undead/Undying, depending on which one is the better one. I can never remember.

 

[humble minion]

But what I want to know is if anything should be done with all the halfling biotech/life-shaped creations. Or is that just way off in the distance and not to be cared about.

TBH I think pretty much everyone would prefer to pretend those never happened. A bit like the surfing druids.

Just cos it was old skool authentic 2e DS, doesn't mean it wasn't a bit bloody silly...

 

[Faolyn]

Clerics are Elementalists in Dark Sun. There's no Life Domain. No War Cleric. Just the elements. Because the setting is equally defined by what limitations it puts into place as it is by what options it expands. MAYBE you could work up a way to allow for greater domain variety, but that's kind of doing it halfway. And expanding Clerics to be Templars just completely craps on their narrative role in the setting as an elementalist alternative to the Sorcerer Kings.

I dunno. Imagine an earth cleric. If you are representing life-giving, fertile soil, you could take Life or Nature. If you are representing earthquakes, stone weapons, and the deadlier aspects of rock, you could take War or Tempest.

 

[Faolyn]

TBH I think pretty much everyone would prefer to pretend those never happened. A bit like the surfing druids.

Just cos it was old skool authentic 2e DS, doesn't mean it wasn't a bit bloody silly...

Fair enough. I really don't know enough about DS to know how well-liked individual parts of it were.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

TBH I think pretty much everyone would prefer to pretend those never happened. A bit like the surfing druids.

I loved the life shaping stuff. I wished they didn’t wait until nearly the end of the line to introduce it though because I think there is an amazing fit with the setting if it was part of it from the start.

The surfing druids though… (face palm)