D&D 5E (+) What would you want for 5e Dark Sun?

[Steampunkette]

I think the Dragonlance topic of the same name is pretty great and I'd like to follow through a similar course with Dark Sun under the following precepts:

1) Narrative Elements will almost certainly change to adapt the setting toward more modern sensibilities. More female characters, LGBT inclusion, wider ethnic diversity, and some elements may be trimmed or re-framed to be less offensive. This isn't inherently a bad thing. But if you're down with it, what kind of changes would you want to see?

2) Dark Sun has a ton of Systems Changes. From Defiling to Psionics to Environmental Survival. How drastically would you want to see those systems altered, or perhaps do you have ideas on how they could be carried forward? Or do you think that such changes should even be -applied- to a modern table sensibility due to the preponderance of roll-playing as opposed to role-playing in modern game design?

3) Power Level. While it could be included in the Systems changes, Dark Sun's monsters were stronger, it's characters had higher stat generation methods, and magic items, or even good quality weapons and armor, were rare to make things even more challenging. Should that stylistic and mechanical gap remain in 5e, or should it be brought into a more "Modern Balance" spirit where any Athasian character is no stronger or weaker, by default, than any Faerunian one?

I'll go first.

Narrative Changes for Modern Sensibilities:

• More Female Sorcerer-Kings.
  • On Athas there were only 3 female sorcerer-kings. Abalach-Re, Lalali-Puy, and Yarmuke. And Yarmuke was destroyed by Hamanu who also wiped her city from the world.
  • Thankfully, most of the Sorcerer-Kings gender is pretty irrelevant to who they are and what they accomplish. So making Oronis, Tectuktitlay, or even Andropinis (Who has the most masculine name of them all, Man-Penis) into Female Characters wouldn't actually change much of anything.
  • Could even have one of the Sorcerer-Kings be transgender. Nibenay presents a draconic form and largely hides from the public eye. It could be interesting if that draconic form were feminine.
• LGBTQ+ loose organizations could be neat.
  • I don't mean big and broad-ranging LGBTQ Lobbyists. I'm talking about smaller organizations of protection. Athas is a harsh place and having trans characters know that, for example, a building with a painted Kank's Head on the front wall wall is a safe space could be interesting. It would also set Athas aside from other settings as one that is harsh, but not without it's mercies.
  • Similarly, an alliance of people with different sexualities creating a group-atmosphere of protection and solidarity might be nice in a cruel world. Like maybe no one cares if some courtier is slipping into silk-sheets with courtiers of similar genders, or whether gladiators are coupling in the barracks between matches, but there's still plenty of reason for abundant caution and escape plans and the like for when bigots -do- rear their ugly heads
  • Though it would also be kind of great to just have no societal stigmas tied to LGBTQ+ existence, of course.
• Slavery is a tough call. But I think they could largely keep it.
  • 5e D&D tries to keep slavery in the hands of evil people. Which is why the Drow are totally willing to enslave you at the start of Out of the Abyss. The main thrust of slavery in modern fantasy is that it exists, it is evil, and only evil people enslave others.
  • Therefore having slavery as a thing in the setting would still work, but the players would be actively encouraged to fight and kill slavers when possible/reasonable, and free any slaves they find. Which is what good people should do in any setting.
• Points of (Dim) Light?
  • Athas has always been a place with a handful of real "Towns" and a few villages scattered across the sands between them, often 2-3 days travel apart (On foot) and usually plagued by cannibal Elves, cannibal Thri-Kreen, and cannibal Halflings. Because, honestly, cannibalism is just super popular as a dining option on Athas.
  • This sort of physical structure lends itself well to a Points of Light campaign. And, honestly, making that the style du jour for Athas could fit really, -really-, well. So long as the lights are dim. So long as the safety is fleeting, the comfort expensive, and the danger swift to return.
• Ethnic Variety
  • Honestly, Athas could do this fairly easily if the art department goes for it without any sort of backlash. I don't think there's much chance, at all, that people are going to complain if Tecuktitlay isn't white as snow, or Lalali-Puy doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes. Honestly, ruddy and dark skin tones should -probably- be the default for the whole setting, with pale skin being a rarity even among the wealthy.

Systems Changes:

• Arcane/Divine/Psionics as different.
  • 5e's "All magic is just magic" is just not good for Athas. Athas uses Defiling and Preserving as a powerful narrative element, and one that Clerics and Druids are incapable of doing because their power doesn't defile.
  • Athas would need to break the "Weave Narrative" to work. Different types of magic -need- to be different to interact with this core identity of the setting.
• Psionics as Default
  • A Psionicist Class (I love KibblesTasty's) would be great. Especially one that takes cantrip-casting to heart and builds off of it.
  • Probably a Psionic-Warrior option or something similar as well. Likely as a Subclass of Fighter or maybe Ranger?
  • Maybe just a whole mess of Psionic Subclasses in general.
  • Definitely a ton of Wild Talents as Feats.
• Defiling as Default
  • Preserving should be something you actively choose, rather than a default. And it should cost you.
  • Yes. This makes Wizards and Sorcerers (if they're even in the game!) weaker unless they defile. That's the point.
  • Playing a Wizard should be unattractive in the setting to keep the Arcane magic level low. Not impossible, so people can still play their Wizards... but less attractive.
• Travel Mechanics
  • Traveling from place to place isn't hard, really. Pick a direction and go. Getting there -alive- is the trick.
  • Heat Mechanics, Environmental Hazards, Dangerous Monsters, and most importantly LIMITED RESOURCES.
  • Water isn't always available on Athas. And even when you -can- get some it's often dirty.
  • Some sort of mechanical structure that makes survival against the World into it's own unique danger layered on top of everything else would be spectacular.

Power Level

• Stronger Characters. Harsher Challenges.
  • Athasian characters have been stronger than those of other settings, often with less magical power available. Previous editions handled this with higher attribute scores, which is also an option but consider replacing Magic Items with "Heroic Power"
  • To replace magic items, there should be a new "Internalized Power" system that allows characters to function as if they -have- magic items in many cases and situations, without actually having them.
  • Perhaps give people a number of "Heroic Power" slots equal to their Attunement availability and allow the player to gain these heroic powers through gameplay.
  • Belt of Giant Strength? Nah. Your strength score gets boosted 'cause you have "Mighty Thews" which gives you a +4 Strength Bonus (Max 22) or a +6 bonus (Max 24
• Bigger Stats
  • Maybe give players their level 4 ASI at level 1? Or their level 8 at level 1 so they just don't get one of the two during leveling.
  • This would keep their overall power level similar while boosting them at low-level play before they can play into the "Heroic Power" system.
• Wild Talent at level 1?
  • Wild Talents are an important part of Athasian culture. Not -everyone- has them, but enough people do that it's just considered normal.
  • Maybe give all players a single level 1 "Free Feat" which can be a Wild Talent or not, as they personally prefer.
• Interesting Weapon and Armor Rules.
  • In addition to having some really cool and slightly freaky weapons, Athas also had rules relating to Bone, Stone, and Wooden weapons that probably should be updated.
  • Weapon Breakage was a common problem for Athasian Heroes who would often see their favorite Carrikal break off in the thick armored hide of a Braxat or crushed under the bulk of a rampaging Mellikot.
  • Armor/Shield Breakage was also an issue, but slightly (SLIGHTLY) less common. Maybe give players the ability to actively sacrifice shields and armor to negate a critical hit altogether, or something? Not sure.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Steampunkette]

I would avoid conventional necromancy as the wizard has that down well.
I like the two in one dualism you suggest but how much more options can we get? light and shadow always is a good pair.
I just want all psionic elementalism in one subclass to both simplicity and to avoid cluttering up the other sub class concepts with it.
has soul ever been done as a sub class thing for any class?

I would prefer a more commoner sounding word for it still Latin always brings to mind acidemia and it sounds odd when a drunk illiterate bandit say it.

I wouldn't mind a more common word? There just isn't one. And creating one you'd have to be in the position of Wizards of the Coast or another large publisher in order to get that word into mainstream language to the point where people don't go: "Oh, you mean Telekinesis."

Until that point changing up the word is just going to make things needlessly complicated. Because you'll create your word, and 60 other people will create their words, and all of you will be talking about the same thing with no ability to communicate.

It's like USB. Universal Serial Bus. A single easy to manage standard. Only now there are like 30 of them. Because everyone wanted to create a universal standard all on their own. And anyone who tries to combine the best technology from each of those universal options to create a singular universal option just creates a new one until someone else comes along and creates a new one after that.

 

[Steampunkette]

If doing psionic elementalism, I would rather see the Druid or the Sorcerer do it. Not the Psion.

Perhaps, there can even be psionic elementalist archetype (subclass) that both the Druid and the Sorcerer can take. The archetype makes the Druid and Sorcerer features psionic.

The psionic elementalism can go by the name of primal. But if shamanistic animism itself comes to be understood as psionic, even better.

Can people handle a psionic Druid? A primal Druid sounds more familiar, even if primal is psionic.

I'm sure people could handle a psionic druid. But it's not part of Dark Sun.

 

[Yaarel]

From archeology, I know full well that the Greek language is highly prominent during the Medieval Period.

Even so, at this time, it was moreso a sacred language (New Testament, Plato, Aristotle, etcetera).

To our modern ears, Greek connotes scientific jargon. And this technobabble connotation feels less appropriate for a medieval setting. Despite the fact that the language itself is appropriate.

For me, I love the psionic power source and all of its themes. It is painful to me, that 5e still has not mainstreamed psionics, despite psionics existing as part of D&D since its earliest origins.

Part of the solution, is using normal terms and especially normal mechanics. The psionic themes speak for themselves. These themes are central to the Medieval Period, and emphasize a medievalesque setting. Themes like: mind manipulation, premonitions, sharing thoughts, remote presence, and so on, are part of the Medieval worldview.

 

[Yaarel]

I'm sure people could handle a psionic druid. But it's not part of Dark Sun.

I agree. I suspect Dark Sun fans can handle a primal Druid.

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding technobabble:

"Telekinesis" sounds fine. But not "psychokinesis".

Even tho "psionic" is all kinds of wrong, at this point I view it as an endearing D&D-ism.

But other kinds of technobabble, I hope to avoid.

If there is a normal word, such as "shapeshift" versus "psychometabolism", I strongly prefer the normal word.

 

[Steampunkette]

Latin, @Yaarel. Not Greek.

Though Koine Greek is used in the old testament, Greek was not a common language during the medieval period. Latin was language used by kings and religious figures but not so much by the lay person.

The problem with trying to use medieval language to describe psionic powers is that most of the language relating to such things has already been used for magic.

And ultimately that's the trick of it isn't it? The words that we imagine for magic, things like necromancer or abjuration, are largely medieval words or even early Renaissance. Oh, sure they have their root basis in Greek or Latin but they have that French flare to them that makes them magical instead of scientific.

And I do mean French, necromancy is a French term.

Maybe what we would have to do is search for romance language terms which sound similar to the Latin words and go from there.

 

[Yaarel]

Latin, @Yaarel. Not Greek.

Though Koine Greek is used in the old testament, Greek was not a common language during the medieval period. Latin was language used by kings and religious figures but not so much by the lay person.

Via the Byzantine Empire, the eastern half of Europe and the Mediterranean, continued to speak and keep alive Greek.

Meanwhile, Plato is ubiquitous. Then Aristotle.

The fall of the Byzantine Empire during the Medieval Empire brought many Greek speaking scholars to Western Europe. These Westerners inherently revered their knowledge of Greek.

The problem with trying to use medieval language to describe psionic powers is that most of the language relating to such things has already been used for magic.

Just like the Druid and Wizard have much in common, the flavor differs.

If the terminology for psionic themes already exist in D&D, we should be using the standard D&D terms.

To invent jettisonable redundant terms only harms the popularity of the psionic power source.

 

[Steampunkette]

Regarding technobabble:

"Telekinesis" sounds fine. But not "psychokinesis".

Even tho "psionic" is all kinds of wrong, at this point I view it as an endearing D&D-ism.

But other kinds of technobabble, I hope to avoid.

If there is a normal word, such as "shapeshift" versus "psychometabolism", I strongly prefer the normal word.

In retrospect, psionics is the perfect example!

Psi represented the "incorporeal essence of power" which is why the word psychic exists.

But psionic is a new cognate, which has a direct connection to the original while not being anything relevant.

Specifically it was coined in the 1950s as a combination of the terms psychic and electronics but that's another story...

Maybe if we were to try and do something similar? Come by in the psychic root with a more common term we could coin a phrase that would actually communicate intention without a side discussion about definitions...

On the topic of psychometabolism though, it isn't shape-shifting. Shape-shifting is an aspect of psychometabolism, but not the entirety of it. That would be like saying necromancy is the power to raise the dead. Without touching on any of the part where it kills things really good.

 

[Yaarel]

In retrospect, psionics is the perfect example!

Psi represented the "incorporeal essence of power" which is why the word psychic exists.

But psionic is a new cognate, which has a direct connection to the original while not being anything relevant.

Specifically it was coined in the 1950s as a combination of the terms psychic and electronics but that's another story...

Maybe if we were to try and do something similar? Come by in the psychic root with a more common term we could coin a phrase that would actually communicate intention without a side discussion about definitions...

Heh, if someone coined the word "psionic", right now, for sure, I would say, "No way!"

But the term is a wellknown and familiar term since the origins of D&D.

Even scifi uses the term less and less. Pretty much only D&D still uses the term.

But for D&D players, psionic seems ok, but there still needs to be a good alternate name, like "mind magic", to help make this term fit within a medievalesque setting. (Compare the alternate names "Drow" and "Dark Elf".)

 

[Yaarel]

On the topic of psychometabolism though, it isn't shape-shifting. Shape-shifting is an aspect of psychometabolism, but not the entirety of it. That would be like saying necromancy is the power to raise the dead. Without touching on any of the part where it kills things really good.

Psychometabolism is more or less synonymous with psychosoma, and psychometabolic with psychosomatic.

Essentially, it means "mind and body" is a single being, whence "mind-over-body", that thoughts can reshape the body. The "metabolism" suggests more emphasis at a cellular level of the body.

This concept that a thought can shapeshift the body, is central to the Norse view, and many other animistic views.

In the medieval world, people believed the physical appearance of a child depended on the stray thoughts that the parents had while having sex. It might sound surprising to us, but that is the medieval world in many cultures.