Bolares
Hero
I think it happens because there isn't a cost to taking the fringe feats on 1st level. It's hard to give up an ASI for the actor feat, but when you get it for free, and it makes sense for your backstory....
D&D 5E A change that improves half-feats
clearstream
(He, Him)
It might depend on whether you go with points buy or random ability generation. I most often see half-feats taken when a character has an odd ability score that they want to take to even for the modifier increase. Such as recently the monk in my group chose Elven Accuracy. In their case, +2 felt mechanically identical to +1 because they were only improving their modifier one step either way. The side benefit that they felt worked for their character, became more viable.
As an aside, I hope you could agree that even though we are not rebalancing all feats here, we can still go ahead and fix this aspect of half-feats. And that, that will improve them.
This depends HEAVILY on the campaign.
In a campaign were the social tier is prominent or where the DM is good about allowing parley options, the actor feat is really huge.
Heck, in such a campaign, a warlock with actor and mask of many faces will moot many of the encounters. Add in skilled or prodigy (assuming a good starting charisma) and it gets pretty hilarious.
As for the OP, I think it's an excellent idea and am leaning that way for my own games.
Yaarel
He Mage
Heh, if every skill was as good and necessary as Perception is, I would agree with you!
Where 1 feat ≈ 8 proficiencies
• 2 ≈ Perception
• 1½ ≈ Arcana, Athletics, Stealth, Survival, Persuasion
• 1 ≈ Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, History, Medicine, Slight of Hand
• ½ ≈ Language, Performance, Religion
Investigation and Nature are weird because of their redundancy with other skills.
I agree. It seems that in the context of the 5e mechanical environment, these feats are significantly underpowered.
Yeah. Especially, when using a feat to customize (!), one needs flexibility with regard to
Yes. Characters need to grow organically while advancing. While planning out leveling choices can be fun for a longterm goal. Serendipity should work too.
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Bolares
Hero
Well, sure, I was just sharing what happened to the groups where I used free feats at level 1. Not a broad statement at all.
Bolares
Hero
Perception shouldn't be a skill. It's strictly better as a choice than any other skill and is by far the one most rolled in my tables
Yaarel
He Mage
Regarding skills.
Investigation is weird because of its redundancy with Perception, and Nature is weird because of its redundancy with Survival.
Ideally. I would get rid of Perception. In order to "perceive" something they would have to use a skill that is relevant to know what to look for. To "perceive" someone hiding, they would use Stealth, because they would know about how to hide and how to avoid detection.
Without Perception, Investigation becomes valuable to combine research and intuition (1½).
Deception works better as Intelligence, not Charisma. Coming up with a plausible lie is quite difficult, and one must know what one is talking about, especially if under scrutiny.
I would (and do) combine Athletics and Acrobatics into a single skill called Athletics (worth 2) that uses Strength for balance.
I would (and do) combine Nature and Survival, and Medicine, into a single skill called Nature (1½). I use nature to handle alchemy and poison as well.
I would (and do) fold Insight into Persuasion (1½), using Charisma for social skills and emotional intelligence including empathy. Persuasion also handles Animal Handling.
I am still playing around with Intimidation and still dont know how I feel about. The argument that this should be part of Persuasion make sense to me. And if so, Intimidation might work for strictly physical intimidation, in the sense of looking dangerous. On the other hand, if Persuasion plays on needs and Intimidation plays on fears, that does work too.
Investigation is weird because of its redundancy with Perception, and Nature is weird because of its redundancy with Survival.
Ideally. I would get rid of Perception. In order to "perceive" something they would have to use a skill that is relevant to know what to look for. To "perceive" someone hiding, they would use Stealth, because they would know about how to hide and how to avoid detection.
Without Perception, Investigation becomes valuable to combine research and intuition (1½).
Deception works better as Intelligence, not Charisma. Coming up with a plausible lie is quite difficult, and one must know what one is talking about, especially if under scrutiny.
I would (and do) combine Athletics and Acrobatics into a single skill called Athletics (worth 2) that uses Strength for balance.
I would (and do) combine Nature and Survival, and Medicine, into a single skill called Nature (1½). I use nature to handle alchemy and poison as well.
I would (and do) fold Insight into Persuasion (1½), using Charisma for social skills and emotional intelligence including empathy. Persuasion also handles Animal Handling.
I am still playing around with Intimidation and still dont know how I feel about. The argument that this should be part of Persuasion make sense to me. And if so, Intimidation might work for strictly physical intimidation, in the sense of looking dangerous. On the other hand, if Persuasion plays on needs and Intimidation plays on fears, that does work too.
Tales and Chronicles
Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I agree mostly with your changes.
In my games this is the list of skills:
Str: Athletic, Intimidation, Ride, Craft (create using demanding work)
Con: Concentration, Survival
- Con mod is used for saving throws and Healing rate (added to each instance of healing received). Con score determine the starting HP of a character at level 0 hp (at 1st level and each following level, you add 1 roll of your HD, without the Con mod).
Dex: Deft hands (thieves' tools, calligraphy, precision crafting), stealth
Int: Search (investigation, spot), Riddle (bluff/disguise/puzzle/cryptography, ciphers, battlefield maneuvers etc), Culture X (act as language proficiency and etiquette/lore about a specific culture), History.
Wis: Religion Lore, Nature Lore, Arcana Lore
- Lores were moved to wisdom in order to mix the knowledge of those things AND their wise, concrete application in the real world, making them more about practical knowledges than theoretical ones (which would be intelligence).
Cha: Empathy (Insight, Persuasion, works with animals too), Performance (arts/music instruments), Gamble, Leadership.
Being proficient with a tools gives you advantage when making a skill check using that specific tool.
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Yaarel
He Mage
Neat.
Intimidation: I can live with this.
Ride: I view ride as two things, Persuasion and Athletics. In my experience of horse riding, one absolutely must have an emotional rapport with the horse. As long as the relationship with the horse is good, any stunts or stumbles are basically an Athletic balance check.
... Arcana: Now that I think of it, Arcana should probably be the spellcasting ability, whichever this is.
Survival: The official Survival includes things like navigating a ship, knowing which foods are poisonous and which arent, how to recognize and pursue animal tracks, and so on. I am unsure how relevant Constitution is for it. I even feel Wisdom is inappropriate, and it should be Intelligence, which is why I fold it into Nature.
Riddle: Not sure what to do with things that are more like "DM gives a hint". Cryptography and deciphering an unknown language, I get it, but am unsure what to do with it. I would probably use Investigation as a catch-all.
... Things like art, esthetics, disguise, acting, and so on, all somehow relate to Performance, and could potentially make Performance a valuable skill, but I am unsure how to go about it. Some things seem to need two checks. Dancing might use Athletics for the technical skill and at the same time use Performance for how esthetically pleasing it is to the audience. A realistic painting might use Deception for the illusionism and Performance for its beauty and financial worth. Similarly, disguise might use Deception for technical visual simulation and Performance for the skillful portrayal. I havent fully thought these kinds of artistic abilities.
Culture X: Actually, including knowledgeability about a culture with the ability to speak its language, is completely accurate! Great idea.
Nature Lore: For me, strictly Intelligence.
Arcana Lore: Now I think, this should be whatever the casting ability is, whether Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, and default to Intelligence if the caster is unknown.
Performance: See above with disguise and riddle. Could be a valuable skill.
Animal Handling: As mentioned earlier, I make Animal Handling part of Persuasion, and here part of Empathy. So much of rapporting with humans, including children, is simple, basic (namely animalistic) needs, like comfort and safety. It can be that Animal Handling is more like a Tool proficiency, in the sense of a Vehicle. It would include all the necessary information and skills relevant to the animal, including Ride.
Gamble: I would fold this into Performance, while I am still rethinking Performance.
Tools: I love 5e Tool proficiencies. I am still getting a feel for them, since Xanathars. I view them as specialized skills that are nevertheless quite useful in their own right. Tools are the best magic item crafting mechanic ever! Let Alchemist make whatever item makes sense for alchemy, and Blacksmith for magical sword and armor. The DM can still gatekeep which items are allowed by requiring more difficulty and special ingredients and circumstances. Advantage for skill-tool overlap seems fair, general knowledgeable and special knowledge can both help.
Athletics: awesome.
Intimidation: I can live with this.
Ride: I view ride as two things, Persuasion and Athletics. In my experience of horse riding, one absolutely must have an emotional rapport with the horse. As long as the relationship with the horse is good, any stunts or stumbles are basically an Athletic balance check.
Concentration: I have mixed feelings about the official Concentration mechanic. I like how one powerful spell at a time is important to really balance Wizard and Fighter. But I hate how a class feature like spellcasting can be disrupted. If Concentration is to need a saving throw (or a skill), I prefer the caster uses the spellcasting ability of the class. Wizard uses Intelligence to maintain concentration, Bard uses Charisma, and so on. If a skill is available to improve concentration, I would rather have Arcana be the skill to know how to maintain concentration.
... Arcana: Now that I think of it, Arcana should probably be the spellcasting ability, whichever this is.
Survival: The official Survival includes things like navigating a ship, knowing which foods are poisonous and which arent, how to recognize and pursue animal tracks, and so on. I am unsure how relevant Constitution is for it. I even feel Wisdom is inappropriate, and it should be Intelligence, which is why I fold it into Nature.
Deft Hands: awesome. It is the proper definition of "dexterity". It also becomes relevant in magical rituals and alchemical formulas that require precision.
Search: I like the name Investigation and feel it also includes intuition. So Intelligence handles knowledge generally, including intuitive ways of discerning knowledge. I feel spot like Perception, should depend on a specific skill, like using Stealth to spot someone hiding.
Riddle: Not sure what to do with things that are more like "DM gives a hint". Cryptography and deciphering an unknown language, I get it, but am unsure what to do with it. I would probably use Investigation as a catch-all.
... Things like art, esthetics, disguise, acting, and so on, all somehow relate to Performance, and could potentially make Performance a valuable skill, but I am unsure how to go about it. Some things seem to need two checks. Dancing might use Athletics for the technical skill and at the same time use Performance for how esthetically pleasing it is to the audience. A realistic painting might use Deception for the illusionism and Performance for its beauty and financial worth. Similarly, disguise might use Deception for technical visual simulation and Performance for the skillful portrayal. I havent fully thought these kinds of artistic abilities.
Culture X: Actually, including knowledgeability about a culture with the ability to speak its language, is completely accurate! Great idea.
Religion: For me, religion is two things: History for same-plane cultures, or Arcana for other-plane cultures, depending on the question. But now with your Culture X in mind, I want to rethink how this should work.
Nature Lore: For me, strictly Intelligence.
Arcana Lore: Now I think, this should be whatever the casting ability is, whether Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, and default to Intelligence if the caster is unknown.
Empathy: Awesome.
Performance: See above with disguise and riddle. Could be a valuable skill.
Animal Handling: As mentioned earlier, I make Animal Handling part of Persuasion, and here part of Empathy. So much of rapporting with humans, including children, is simple, basic (namely animalistic) needs, like comfort and safety. It can be that Animal Handling is more like a Tool proficiency, in the sense of a Vehicle. It would include all the necessary information and skills relevant to the animal, including Ride.
Gamble: I would fold this into Performance, while I am still rethinking Performance.
Tools: I love 5e Tool proficiencies. I am still getting a feel for them, since Xanathars. I view them as specialized skills that are nevertheless quite useful in their own right. Tools are the best magic item crafting mechanic ever! Let Alchemist make whatever item makes sense for alchemy, and Blacksmith for magical sword and armor. The DM can still gatekeep which items are allowed by requiring more difficulty and special ingredients and circumstances. Advantage for skill-tool overlap seems fair, general knowledgeable and special knowledge can both help.
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The problem with them is the abilities are not always good. For example, shadow touched and fey touched have a choice between wisdom, intelligence or charisma. But these are awesome feats for an Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight. To be honest I think these are the best two classes for these feats, but you might want dexterity or strength for your ASI and if you take them at 4th and 8th level you will be 4 points behind someone who took the ASI. Forcing it to an off ability is even more of a detriment if you take it as a variant human or custom lineage at 1st level where there is a bigger payoff for a half feat. Using point buy at 1st level, a half feat is worth 2 points if you put it on an ability score above 13.
That said they are really awesome feats (as are many of the TCE feats) so I don't think that gimping it to make you take an off stat is that debilitating.
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