Discussing Sword & Sorcery and RPGs

[Yora]

I think Sword & Sorcery demands a combat system that is faster and with simpler rules, not one that is slower and more meticulous. You want fast action with enemies being quickly swepts aside. The swinging of swords doesn't really add anything to the story, it rather interrupt the story. What you want instead is a system that is highly flexible by being rather abstract, so that you can represent all kinds of cool things players might want to do with a small set of very simple dice rolls. Don't get bogged down with counting squares and optimizing your conditional modifiers. When a player says he wants to throw an enemy over the railing and down a well, there's no time to pull out some book to look up an obscure rule for grabbing and throwing opponents. Push heavy barrels down the stairs, swing on chandeliers, push someone's face into the forge fire. It has to feel like chaotic action, not like a cricket game lasting the whole afternon.

 

[CapnZapp]

I think Sword & Sorcery demands a combat system that is faster and with simpler rules, not one that is slower and more meticulous. You want fast action with enemies being quickly swepts aside. The swinging of swords doesn't really add anything to the story, it rather interrupt the story. What you want instead is a system that is highly flexible by being rather abstract, so that you can represent all kinds of cool things players might want to do with a small set of very simple dice rolls. Don't get bogged down with counting squares and optimizing your conditional modifiers. When a player says he wants to throw an enemy over the railing and down a well, there's no time to pull out some book to look up an obscure rule for grabbing and throwing opponents. Push heavy barrels down the stairs, swing on chandeliers, push someone's face into the forge fire. It has to feel like chaotic action, not like a cricket game lasting the whole afternon.

Absolutely.

However, could I suggest a possible conflation between complex games and games focused on individual swings?

I completely agree S&S deserves non complex non cluttery games.

But the allure of Blades was to conclude each duel in just a few swings, since as soon as you connect it's game over. (When hit you don't just go "minus 26 hp", you fall to the ground screaming with your entrails falling out...)

Whatever it's faults it certainly wasn't a game like, say, Pathfinder 2, with loads of modifiers and conditionals.

 

[Aldarc]

I think Sword & Sorcery demands a combat system that is faster and with simpler rules, not one that is slower and more meticulous. You want fast action with enemies being quickly swepts aside. The swinging of swords doesn't really add anything to the story, it rather interrupt the story. What you want instead is a system that is highly flexible by being rather abstract, so that you can represent all kinds of cool things players might want to do with a small set of very simple dice rolls. Don't get bogged down with counting squares and optimizing your conditional modifiers. When a player says he wants to throw an enemy over the railing and down a well, there's no time to pull out some book to look up an obscure rule for grabbing and throwing opponents. Push heavy barrels down the stairs, swing on chandeliers, push someone's face into the forge fire. It has to feel like chaotic action, not like a cricket game lasting the whole afternon.

This sounds more in the vein of Fate or Cortex Prime.

 

[Yora]

For those looking to play a gang of Lankhmar rogues, I'd absolutely recommend Blades in the Dark.

I'm still surprised that there isn't a "generic" Sword & Sorcery PtbA game. Ot seems like a perfect fit.

 

[Aldarc]

For those looking to play a gang of Lankhmar rogues, I'd absolutely recommend Blades in the Dark.

I'm still surprised that there isn't a "generic" Sword & Sorcery PtbA game. Ot seems like a perfect fit.

Freebooters of the Frontier and possibly Vagabonds of Dyfed.

 

[pemerton]

For those looking to play a gang of Lankhmar rogues, I'd absolutely recommend Blades in the Dark.

I'm still surprised that there isn't a "generic" Sword & Sorcery PtbA game. Ot seems like a perfect fit.

As well as what @Aldarc mentioned, there's @loverdrive's Swords Under the Sun.

I would love a game where your swing details make important mechanical sense.

Since this likely slows down combat you can afford to have fewer and smaller combats, to really put the emphasis on how close to death you really are. Maybe not transforming the experience from combat as sport to combat as war, but asking players to REALLY be discerning with the fights they pick.

However I haven't found any such games.

Burning Wheel. Depending on the detail that is desired, violence can be resolved as a straightforward check - intent and task - like any other; can be resolved as a single pair of opposed checks (attack and defence pools); or can be resolved via a system of detailed blind declarations, where the choice to attack, parry, feint etc matters quite a bit - there is some resemblance to RuneQuest or to The Riddle of Steel.

 

[CapnZapp]

As well as what @Aldarc mentioned, there's @loverdrive's Swords Under the Sun.

Burning Wheel. Depending on the detail that is desired, violence can be resolved as a straightforward check - intent and task - like any other; can be resolved as a single pair of opposed checks (attack and defence pools); or can be resolved via a system of detailed blind declarations, where the choice to attack, parry, feint etc matters quite a bit - there is some resemblance to RuneQuest or to The Riddle of Steel.

RQ does indeed offer you the possibility to declare a stance which is more involved than D&D.

But I'm talking about games where every single swing is played out.

At least that's what I thought Blades would be (not the other Blades), but it turned out there was zero effort to balance the various swings, stabs, lunges, and cautious parries against each other. You could just select a high-performance option from the tables and repeat it. To me such a game needs a clever mechanism to balance a big swing with getting overextended afterwards (and so on and so on) but that was left in the hands of the players.

A good GM could use it but you could not just give it to the players - they'd minmax the bazoo out of it instantly.

There just was no game.

 

[pemerton]

I'm talking about games where every single swing is played out.

<snip>

To me such a game needs a clever mechanism to balance a big swing with getting overextended afterwards (and so on and so on)

Burning Wheel (with its Fight! subsystem) satisfies these two desiderata. I think that TRoS does too, but it's harder to get a copy of!

 

[Yora]

Last night I realized that any system for a Sword & Sorcery campaign needs a good mechanic for wrestling and such. Characters absolutely have to be able to kick people into pits or strangle them to death with their own bare hands.

 

[Aldarc]

Burning Wheel. Depending on the detail that is desired, violence can be resolved as a straightforward check - intent and task - like any other; can be resolved as a single pair of opposed checks (attack and defence pools); or can be resolved via a system of detailed blind declarations, where the choice to attack, parry, feint etc matters quite a bit - there is some resemblance to RuneQuest or to The Riddle of Steel.

RQ does indeed offer you the possibility to declare a stance which is more involved than D&D.

But I'm talking about games where every single swing is played out.

At least that's what I thought Blades would be (not the other Blades), but it turned out there was zero effort to balance the various swings, stabs, lunges, and cautious parries against each other. You could just select a high-performance option from the tables and repeat it. To me such a game needs a clever mechanism to balance a big swing with getting overextended afterwards (and so on and so on) but that was left in the hands of the players.

A good GM could use it but you could not just give it to the players - they'd minmax the bazoo out of it instantly.

There just was no game.

Jackals: Bronze Age Fantasy Roleplaying (Osprey Games), which uses a modified version of OpenQuest, could also likely work. I believe that Dungeon Musings on YouTube has several videos of him running the game.