D&D General RA Salvatore Wants To Correct Drizzt’s Racist Tropes

In an interview with Polygon, the author talks about how the drow are currently being redefined in D&D, and how he wants to be part of that process. ”But on the other hand, if the drow are being portrayed as evil, that’s a trope that has to go away, be buried under the deepest pit, and never brought out again. I was unaware of that. I admit it. I was oblivious. Drow are now split into (at...

Status
Not open for further replies.
In an interview with Polygon, the author talks about how the drow are currently being redefined in D&D, and how he wants to be part of that process.
”But on the other hand, if the drow are being portrayed as evil, that’s a trope that has to go away, be buried under the deepest pit, and never brought out again. I was unaware of that. I admit it. I was oblivious.

Drow are now split into (at least) three types — the familiar Udadrow of Menzoberranzan, the arctic-themed Aevendrow, and the jungle-themed Lorendrow. Salvatore's new novel, Starlight Enclave, helps to expand the drows' role in the narrative.
In 2020 WotC made a public statement about how they would be treating drow and orcs going forward -- "Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated. That’s just not right, and it’s not something we believe in. "

56EAA729-D9DA-4E25-ADC3-413844BA2021.jpeg
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
So... I do wanna address this Nietzschean Quote that -KEEPS GETTING USED- when people start talking about bigotry: This one's for you, @LuisCarlos17f

Nietzsche was talking about Christians who were fighting Sin. When fighting Sin it's super easy to commit -several- different sins. Pride and Wrath being the two big ones.

It does not mean "People who are oppressed should only fight back in the softest and most gentle way possible because otherwise they'll be the REAL Bigots!" nor does it mean "Members of a minority have to fight their side's Magneto if they want people to listen to them about real grievances!"

For that particular quote to work in relation to, say, Transgender people and bigotry we'd have to:

1) Take over the world.
2) Spend centuries destroying cultural history of cisgender people existing.
3) Make being trans "Normal" and being cis "Abnormal" within society.
4) Begin oppressing people for being Cisgender instead of Transgender.
5) Continue oppressing people for being Cisgender to such a degree that they hate themselves for being Cis.
6) Directly oppose attempts to empower Cisgender individuals to be recognized in society and treated equally to trans people.

Like... There's NO DANGER of that ever happening.

Christians were, and remained, the majority religion in Western society. So it's easy for them to mess up in that direction. But everyone else?

Not so much.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

It amazes me that people get hung up about supposed stereotyping of made-up species and cultures. Take a step back and think on that: doesn't it seem absurd to lose any sleep at all over something that is completely fictional? Can people no longer tell the difference?

I avoided the Drow until Eberron made them interesting. They always seemed to me to be murderous Cure fans - goths before there were goths, of a sort, and dull because they were all defined by such an extreme set of beliefs. I knew, all along, that there is no such thing as Drow, however, or any of this stuff, so I just ignored them and had hordes of evil goblins creating problems (save for the few friendly/good ones that I threw in to surprise my players and keep them off balance). The fact that they have black skin seemed silly, but perhaps fitting, given humanity's shared and general fear of the dark (not "of the black" - "of the dark") and that such skin would help them blend into shadows, making them creepier, or more effective within combat and sighting rules in the game.

Eberron made them interesting by changing their default backdrop and adding cultural elements that made a lot more sense to me. But I still was okay with them being portrayed as "all" a certain way because...it's just a story, and as a story that I am free to remake or redefine as I please. Keith Baker has his own Ideas about Eberron; WOTC has theirs; and I have mine. My use of goblinoids changed a lot in response to Eberron's portrayal of them - Hobgoblins are far more interesting as fantasy Klingons than as murderous hordes whose only purpose is to be murderous hordes. But what's wrong with relying on the trope (tired, perhaps, but hardly damaging to society or the individual) of 'evil Drow' if it makes a story work and people around the table have a good time?

And again, it's all made up, and has zero bearing on the real world, unless, again, someone can't tell the difference between the two.

I am not saying any of this to kickstart anyone, and I thought about it before responding at all. It's just amazing and troubling to watch as people get worked up, angry, upset, and draw lines between who's right/wrong/good/bad over things that do....not...exist. If anything, the absurdity of an entire species being of one moral bent or another is a teaching tool to the young that no such thing exists, and that it is silly to think otherwise. To seek a world in which all our fiction (current and past) must be perfectly aligned with the most current of social/moral fads is...creepy, and totalitarian for the conformity it demands.

Where does creativity go when the self-appointed online rage mob acts as gatekeeper to what's allowed? For a community of people who are connected through what is at its foundation a creative exercise, this should be troubling, and yet so many in this community are the ones pushing this new orthodoxy.

And yes, I did read the full article/interview. Maybe Salvatore is being honest, maybe it's shameless and proactive virtue-signaling; we don't know for sure - only he does. Beyond that, it has no bearing on what I decide to think of his fiction (which, in fact, I don't care for - I find his writing predictable and most of his characters pretty shallow).

It bears repeating for the sake of emphasis: this crap is all made up. WOTC doesn't exist to make games to make you feel good about your views about the real world and how it ought to be, per your views. WOTC wants you to buy their books, and their overpriced dice, minis, and all the adventure-specific DM screens they produce, and other junk that eventually will end up in boxes in garages, attics, or second-hand stores and, ultimately, landfills. Not any bit of it will impact the real world beyond the fact that you're spending money, they're making money, and you have heaps of things that one day you'll have no use for. If that all leads to greater happiness and creativity for you, wonderful. If, on the other hand, it leads to anger and a sense of injustice and a need to 'fix' our stories and make sure that people sign on the line to verify that they are good/right....I think you've forgotten the difference between reality and fiction.

I hope that you take some time to think about gaming as a means of having fun with some other people, first and foremost. Keep that as the animating force, and know that you can leave the real world out of your fantasy world, and vice versa. It's actually quite fun.
You sir, you are my hero.
 

lyle.spade

Adventurer
Pointing out that there are human beings with "Jet Black Skin" so hiding behind the 'inhumanity' of Drow meaning they can't have a real life impact on racism is kind of a laughable position for lots of people to take.
You're avoiding my point: how does anything about the Drow impact real life unless a given person decides that a fantasy species is so important that it should? Race relations are real; the Drow are not, and if someone can't tell the difference, they've got bigger problems than whatever happens in Salvatore's formulaic books.

Why aren't we raging about depictions of Hobbits as a people who typically eat a lot and drink too much...won't that make people think that short people are gluttons?

How about depictions of giants in fairytales? Won't those negative stereotypes make people think that tall people are going to eat them?

Fantasy and reality: life's better when you know the difference.
 


Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
To expand on your last analogy, when the shooter stands trial for this crime the prosecution will certainly try to establish intent if it is evident to be there, and the sentencing will be affected by the outcome. The intentional and the accidental shooter both had the same outcome yet the degree of penalty is greatly affected by the intent of the shooter (if established).

I watched the clip, im wondering if you feel that the humor is ignorant of its impact to transgender people, or actually maliciously intended to harm? Would you consider both of these offenses to be equal in measure? Is there a difference in how you would respond to the offender in each case?
Honestly? I don't -care-.

Whether they did it intentionally or not isn't really relevant. They did it. The harm is out there. And has been for 20+ years. It needs to be acknowledged as wrong, disavowed, and buried.

Because that's how you heal this particular type of "Gunshot Wound".

If they don't try to repair the damage they've done, that tells you that either it was intentional, or they stand by it -now- which makes it just as vicious in retrospect.

The last analogy doesn't need "Expanding" on because that never actually gets anyone -anywhere-.
 


It's not "Drow are clearly African Americans and you're villifying us!" Nefermandias. It's "Making Dark-Skinned characters almost invariably evil propagates terrible myths and stereotypes about Light/White being good and Dark/Black being evil, which have real world impacts that are largely Racist."
I'm quite sure this is rooted in the fact that us humans, as diurnal animals, instinctively associate dark with "evil" and light with "good". We depend on light to pretty much everything in our lives, while darkness is scary, unknown and hides predators. You don't have to be a genius to understand that this association predates even language itself.
 

Libertad

Hero
There's actually a pretty interesting article on how even rational and well-educated people can fall for inaccuracies in fiction if they match up with preconceived notions. The show "24" was notable for portraying torture as a quick and effective tool for getting accurate information. Objectively speaking this is false, but that didn't prevent a depressingly large amount of US soldiers from believing that Jack Bauer's methods worked in real life. The US military itself explained how the show was harming efforts among their recruits in acting in safe, moral, and effective ways in real crisis situations.


This past November, U.S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, the dean of the United States Military Academy at West Point, flew to Southern California to meet with the creative team behind “24.” Finnegan, who was accompanied by three of the most experienced military and F.B.I. interrogators in the country, arrived on the set as the crew was filming. At first, Finnegan—wearing an immaculate Army uniform, his chest covered in ribbons and medals—aroused confusion: he was taken for an actor and was asked by someone what time his “call” was.

In fact, Finnegan and the others had come to voice their concern that the show’s central political premise—that the letter of American law must be sacrificed for the country’s security—was having a toxic effect. In their view, the show promoted unethical and illegal behavior and had adversely affected the training and performance of real American soldiers. “I’d like them to stop,” Finnegan said of the show’s producers. “They should do a show where torture backfires.”
 
Last edited:

I'm quite sure this is rooted in the fact that us humans, as diurnal animals, instinctively associate dark with "evil" and light with "good". We depend on light to pretty much everything in our lives, while darkness is scary, unknown and hides predators. You don't have to be a genius to understand that this association predates even language itself.
And why should we be shackled by our prejudices, even those built into our biology? We have the privilege of being sapient animals with the capacity for complex thought. Let's not squander that.
 


Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Remove ads

Top