The problem with Evil races is not what you think

[AbdulAlhazred]

Like, there’s basically only two takes on HPL’s fish people: they’re either irredeemably evil monsters that must be exterminated to protect our pure human bloodlines (and our women!), or they’re a persecuted minority who looks weird but are otherwise normal people. There’s no nuance here, and in neither case do they feel like aliens.

It is not so much about HPL's Fish People (Deep Ones) and how society is depicted as reacting to them AS SUCH. It is the fact that HPL presented ideas of 'degeneracy', 'primitiveness', and 'racial admixture' which were undeniably and clearly drawn directly from, and intended to evoke and be complemented by, the same ideas being applied to human ethnicities by the foremost authorities of his day. The proof of this is of course undeniable and exists prolifically in his own writing and letters.

So, when he talks about the moral degeneracy and even physical and possibly intellectual degeneracy of Deep One/Human hybrids, he is undeniably and literally referencing ideas which he sees as validated 'scientifically' WRT actual living people in the real world. This cannot be seen as 'OK', and if your argument is that a reaction to it is the fault of people who are 'overly sensitive' to having these depictions recapitulated in their gaming, then all I can say is we disagree.

 

[VelvetViolet]

It is not so much about HPL's Fish People (Deep Ones) and how society is depicted as reacting to them AS SUCH. It is the fact that HPL presented ideas of 'degeneracy', 'primitiveness', and 'racial admixture' which were undeniably and clearly drawn directly from, and intended to evoke and be complemented by, the same ideas being applied to human ethnicities by the foremost authorities of his day. The proof of this is of course undeniable and exists prolifically in his own writing and letters.

So, when he talks about the moral degeneracy and even physical and possibly intellectual degeneracy of Deep One/Human hybrids, he is undeniably and literally referencing ideas which he sees as validated 'scientifically' WRT actual living people in the real world. This cannot be seen as 'OK', and if your argument is that a reaction to it is the fault of people who are 'overly sensitive' to having these depictions recapitulated in their gaming, then all I can say is we disagree.

I agree that they’re a racist allegory. I cannot understand the minds of people who claim otherwise. The people in group #2 that I mentioned. They believe that HPL’s fish story cannot have racist themes because the fish people are fictional. When challenged, they’ll point to sources that confirm their confirmation bias. “See? This Israeli critic says that Innsmouth isn’t racist!”

The short story “The Doom that Came to Innsmouth” is emblematic of this kind of thinking. It has the same racist themes as TSoI except updated for the post-Civil Rights era. It’s even more disgusting than its inspiration, because at least in TSoI the story was told by unreliable narrators and you can contrive a non-racist interpretation of the events, but TDtCtI has no such ambiguity and the author seems painfully lacking in self-awareness.

But I don’t agree (aesthetically speaking) with going in the other direction and writing the fishies as a persecuted minority like “The Litany of Earth” does. Even a charitable analysis of the original Innsmouth story can’t whitewash (pun not intended) that the fish people acted like colonizers and are in telepathic thrall to an alien squid dragon thing that is known for driving humans who overhear its thoughts insane.

I recommend Leila Hahn’s analysis, since it is the single most detailed and least biased analysis I could find: Let's Read: everything Howard Phillips Lovecraft ever wrote Books

There’s also this comparison by a Greyirish: “The Doom That Came to Innsmouth” (1999) by Brian McNaughton & “The Litany of Earth” (2014) by Ruthanna Emrys

I agree with Greyirish that these stories fail to actually explore the alien natures of the mermen, instead using them purely as either racist allegories or anti-racist allegories. I prefer horror stories over dark fantasy, and I prefer horror that doesn’t rely on racism. So far the only Innsmouth fanfic (because they’re all ultimately fanfics, even if you can legally sell them) that I enjoyed was the adventure game Call of the Sea, as it didn’t rely on racism and didn’t depict the fishies as a persecuted minority either.

I suppose my tastes are idiosyncratic, but my taste is my taste.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Did the thread mention these articles yet?

No, Orcs Aren't Racist

Why cultural critics keep arguing about the wrong things.

www.psychologytoday.com

Orcs Aren’t People: Denouncing Racism in the D&D Community

Orcs are monsters, not people. Only through de-normalizing the flawed perspective that orcs are supposed to be a racial caricature can we reverse the damage that this rhetoric has caused to the com…

dmsworkshop.com

 

[Malmuria]

Did the thread mention these articles yet?

No, Orcs Aren't Racist

Why cultural critics keep arguing about the wrong things.

www.psychologytoday.com

Orcs Aren’t People: Denouncing Racism in the D&D Community

Orcs are monsters, not people. Only through de-normalizing the flawed perspective that orcs are supposed to be a racial caricature can we reverse the damage that this rhetoric has caused to the com…

dmsworkshop.com

The thread, particularly through @Doug McCrae 's contributions, have gone a lot further in its analysis of various races in dnd than these articles, which are one dimensional and overly defensive. They are indicative of the categorical rejection of the conversation that you refer to earlier. That is, it's hard to even start a conversation on tropes and characterization in dnd and other fantasy stories because it quickly becomes a debate as to whether that conversation should even exist by people who come in just to call the discussion, as the author of that first article says, part of a "new woke wave of moral outrage and policing," and to say "but as far as D&D goes, let’s try to tune out society’s moral entrepreneurs as best we can and get back to gaming." Said by a guy who looks like this

 

[VelvetViolet]

This is why I prefer 13th Age’s take on orcs. They pop out of chasms in the ground as adults holding weapons and don’t reproduce, so all the “other” symbolism is absent. I don’t understand why 5e couldn’t have taken a similar approach. They retconned the ecologies of tons of other monsters.

I’m honestly astonished that we even need to explain that invoking classic “other” symbolism is something that we just don’t do in modern society. I’ve seriously explained this to certain people, and they can’t grasp why you shouldn’t invoke “other” symbolism. They think it’s perfectly okay. This attitude is present worldwide, even among gamers from colonized countries. I like to think that I’m a rational person most of the time. But hearing that rebuttal from those specific people makes me seriously wonder which side is right, or whether there even is a right side. Saying anyone who disagrees has “internalized colonialism” feels suspiciously like confirmation bias to me.

 

[Malmuria]

This is why I prefer 13th Age’s take on orcs. They pop out of chasms in the ground as adults holding weapons and don’t reproduce, so all the “other” symbolism is absent. I don’t understand why 5e couldn’t have taken a similar approach. They retconned the ecologies of tons of other monsters.

I’m honestly astonished that we even need to explain that invoking classic “other” symbolism is something that we just don’t do in modern society. I’ve seriously explained this to certain people, and they can’t grasp why you shouldn’t invoke “other” symbolism. They think it’s perfectly okay. This attitude is present worldwide, even among gamers from colonized countries. I like to think that I’m a rational person most of the time. But hearing that rebuttal from those specific people makes me seriously wonder which side is right, or whether there even is a right side. Saying anyone who disagrees has “internalized colonialism” feels suspiciously like confirmation bias to me.

I have relatives in India who will use terms like "backward" to, for example, talk about rural communities. Similarly, some people look to the west as representative of what it means to be "modern." It speaks to the way recently-developed (relatively speaking) frameworks for understanding human societies spread through cultural contact that is uneven (that is, that involves a distinct power dynamic). In that context, "internalized colonialism" doesn't mean that people are somehow mind controlled but speaks to a set of ideas and ideologies that form a "common sense" for any given group.

 

[VelvetViolet]

I have relatives in India who will use terms like "backward" to, for example, talk about rural communities. Similarly, some people look to the west as representative of what it means to be "modern." It speaks to the way recently-developed (relatively speaking) frameworks for understanding human societies spread through cultural contact that is uneven (that is, that involves a distinct power dynamic). In that context, "internalized colonialism" doesn't mean that people are somehow mind controlled but speaks to a set of ideas and ideologies that form a "common sense" for any given group.

I’ve been trying to interrogate these beliefs and it’s been an exercise in insanity. The people I talked to categorically don’t believe in the concepts of coding or othering… or internalized racism, or pretty much any kind of racism that is more subtle than the KKK or Nazis. The kinds of people who constantly espouse “you think orcs are black people? You’re the real racist!”

While I do think sometimes anti-racism can veer into tilting at windmills that gives the opposition ammunition (which is true of any belief system), this absolute denialism of more subtle forms of racism isn’t a rational response either.

Being even vaguely aware of how utterly pervasive racism and sexism and other -isms are is a curse, because I’ve noticed that a lot of normies are going to think I’m tilting at windmills or attacking them for wrong think.

I also keep seeing stupid stuff on both sides that makes me constantly question what the right answer is and my personal beliefs are constantly pinballing because I can never be sure whether I’m tilting at windmills or not.

I just wish human beings would stop having different opinions. It’s exhausting.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree that they’re a racist allegory. I cannot understand the minds of people who claim otherwise. The people in group #2 that I mentioned. They believe that HPL’s fish story cannot have racist themes because the fish people are fictional. When challenged, they’ll point to sources that confirm their confirmation bias. “See? This Israeli critic says that Innsmouth isn’t racist!”

The short story “The Doom that Came to Innsmouth” is emblematic of this kind of thinking. It has the same racist themes as TSoI except updated for the post-Civil Rights era. It’s even more disgusting than its inspiration, because at least in TSoI the story was told by unreliable narrators and you can contrive a non-racist interpretation of the events, but TDtCtI has no such ambiguity and the author seems painfully lacking in self-awareness.

But I don’t agree (aesthetically speaking) with going in the other direction and writing the fishies as a persecuted minority like “The Litany of Earth” does. Even a charitable analysis of the original Innsmouth story can’t whitewash (pun not intended) that the fish people acted like colonizers and are in telepathic thrall to an alien squid dragon thing that is known for driving humans who overhear its thoughts insane.

I think it would be perfectly acceptable to write a story in which the Deep Ones have a complex, albeit extremely alien, culture. Its fine that they are malevolent in their outlook towards humans, or at least look at us as somewhat of a "sub-Deep One-race." In fact you could definitely PLAY WITH THAT, drawing an analogy between them and historical colonizers and racists IRL (it need not be explicit either). You could then approach the hybrids as a group which suffers bias from both sides (and again there could be interesting parallels here with real history). Now, what the hybrids attitudes towards humans is, etc. could go a few ways, but I would expect there are redeeming features and potentially sympathetic characters there.

I recommend Leila Hahn’s analysis, since it is the single most detailed and least biased analysis I could find: Let's Read: everything Howard Phillips Lovecraft ever wrote Books

There’s also this comparison by a Greyirish: “The Doom That Came to Innsmouth” (1999) by Brian McNaughton & “The Litany of Earth” (2014) by Ruthanna Emrys

Well, I have not read that LR, but I HAVE read (in case my handle leaves much doubt) everything ever written by HPL which is still extant, including the published letters and other material, as well as everything written by the people whom he corresponded with (again subject to it having been in print any time since the mid 20th Century at least). That would include REH, Clark Ashton Smith, etc. I've read, I believe, the vast majority of what HPL ghost wrote, though it is actually hard to know the full scope of that for sure.

I have not read McNaughton nor Emrys AFAIK, though I have read quite a few modern Cthulhu story type collections, so its possible I just don't remember them.

I agree with Greyirish that these stories fail to actually explore the alien natures of the mermen, instead using them purely as either racist allegories or anti-racist allegories. I prefer horror stories over dark fantasy, and I prefer horror that doesn’t rely on racism. So far the only Innsmouth fanfic (because they’re all ultimately fanfics, even if you can legally sell them) that I enjoyed was the adventure game Call of the Sea, as it didn’t rely on racism and didn’t depict the fishies as a persecuted minority either.

I suppose my tastes are idiosyncratic, but my taste is my taste.

I am really not saying that you cannot have a Deep One or Hybrid in a game without confronting everything racist that might be taken for. I would just say that you would want to signal that such tropes are not to be relied upon as the basis of all the facts in play. I'm no genius on what everyone out there is going to find acceptable. I just think when you decide to use HPL-based material at all, you have to reckon with the fact that he was an amazingly, appallingly racist person, and it taints all his work. Honestly, one option would be to simply not bring Mythos material into it at all. HPL doesn't have a lock on Cosmic Horror.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Its fine that they are malevolent in their outlook towards humans, or at least look at us as somewhat of a "sub-Deep One-race."

Hahn speculates that they were engineered as an experiment by the starfish heads because they’re subject to similar hypnotic conditioning as shoggoths are. “Oh look at those poor hominids that can’t breathe water, communicate telepathically, or live indefinitely. Let’s create a hominid that can and release it to breed with the rest. They might make good slaves, and if not we can always dispose of them.” Then there was a lot of Murphy’s Law.

Hahn’s analysis is quite frankly the most creative take I’ve ever seen, and it’s especially interesting because it’s based purely on a critical reading of the original texts. It’s also way less odious than the standard uncritically racist take on the mermen that the Chaosium-defined expanded universe runs with.

 

[John Dallman]

Hahn speculates that they were engineered as an experiment by the starfish heads because they’re subject to similar hypnotic conditioning as shoggoths are. “Oh look at those poor hominids that can’t breathe water, communicate telepathically, or live indefinitely. Let’s create a hominid that can and release it to breed with the rest. They might make good slaves, and if not we can always dispose of them.” Then there was a lot of Murphy’s Law.

That is interesting.

I found in play that the Chaosium scenario Beyond the Mountains of Madness gets a lot more interesting, and more survivable, if the characters, having learned the Elder Things' written language, start talking to them. Elder Things are very weird, but they are material creatures with recognisable needs and desires, so negotiation is conceivably possible.

For a modern take on the Deep Ones, see Charles Stross' novel The Jennifer Morgue.