D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

[EzekielRaiden]

I hear you.

It is important, the power of a martial effect must be appropriate to the level. It must not be assumed to be less powerful than magic. When a martial effect and an arcane effect are the same level, they must be equal in potency and effectiveness.

To be fair, determining the level of a martial effect can be tricky. For example, an Eldritch Knight doesnt get spells until later at level 3, and wont get slot 4 spells until level 19! The Fighter has powerful damage dealing effects, and other kinds of effects delay until later levels. But once the "slot" of an effect is determined, it must be equal to a spell of the same slot.

Likewise, a Fighter or other martial class can have class features that are power effects at low level. For example, I feel the Eldritch Knight needs a magical fighting style at Level 1. Essentially, this "Elven Fighting Style" swaps the medium and heavy armors for an always-on Mage Armor spell instead, and additionally chooses a cantrip from the Wizard spell list. Typically, the fighting style makes the Mage Armor appear as if "silky fine chain mail". This access to the spell and cantrip is full-on magic at level 1, and balances well.

A nonmagical Fighter might use a fighting style to access similar potent effects, albeit nonmagical.

Call me cynical, but having seen the rabid antipathy of a vocal minority for anything like "similar potent effects" being given to Fighters...I'm skeptical. I find it much more likely that it will be seen at best as a huge concession already given, justifying cutbacks elsewhere, or as already too much of a concession, one that must be pared back to be "proper."

That's been a long-running problem with solving these issues. You're lucky if you get even as far as two steps forward, one step back.

 

[Yaarel]

Call me cynical, but having seen the rabid antipathy of a vocal minority for anything like "similar potent effects" being given to Fighters...I'm skeptical. I find it much more likely that it will be seen at best as a huge concession already given, justifying cutbacks elsewhere, or as already too much of a concession, one that must be pared back to be "proper."

That's been a long-running problem with solving these issues. You're lucky if you get even as far as two steps forward, one step back.

As a tactic ...

Maybe the "ki" power source can be the go-to for wondrous martial effects? Even tho ki is magical, it is embodied and natural.

The ki power source relates to psionic. Perhaps "ki" and "psychometabolism" are the same thing, involving the lifeforce aura of a living body.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

It only took me two days to read through the entire thread to date, and I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the majority of it. It is good to be able to read unemotional and rational critiques of these editions, and regret how we could have not had the same types of well-tempered and meaningful discussions while the edition I loved was still relevant.

There is a lot of 4e DNA built into the current edition, but I don't think the two are all that much alike. They may share some similarities, the way all editions of D&D have with each other. But the fundamental differences in their respective designs and philosophies are as different as night and day. For example, 4e showcases the encounter as the heart of the game session, while 5e places emphasis on the overall campaign experience. And there are many other fine points already made in this thread, so I won't try to revisit them.

I like 5e, but I don't love it. And I love 4e, but I don't like it. If I could somehow combine the two, I think I would have the perfect edition for me.

 

[Garthanos]

As a tactic ...
Maybe the "ki" power source can be the go-to for wondrous martial effects? Even tho ki is magical, it is embodied and natural.
The ki power source relates to psionic. Perhaps "ki" and "psychometabolism" are the same thing, involving the lifeforce aura of a living body.

Qi... IRL is definitely breath of life and life force and could be more authentically be based on Con. In 4e terms spend healing surges it could have been Ki instead of the side rode into psionics.

 

[Yaarel]

Qi... IRL is definitely breath of life and life force and could be more authentically be based on Con. In 4e terms spend healing surges it could have been Ki instead of the side rode into psionics.

I would like East Asian players to help develop the concept of ki for D&D. There is critique about the book Oriental Adventures, and also about applying the concept of ki more universally. For example, the concept parallels Greek psukhe, Hebrew nefesh, even English "aura". I think this can be a super cool part of D&D generally.

It didnt occur to me to link ki to Constitution. That makes sense. Ki would also include intangible aspects of hit points and toughness. And could be focused to enhance physical strength and wondrous stunts, like running across water and bounding up alley walls. Probably, it can allow a Fighter to create a magic item. And so on.

 

[Hussar]

Call me cynical, but having seen the rabid antipathy of a vocal minority for anything like "similar potent effects" being given to Fighters...I'm skeptical. I find it much more likely that it will be seen at best as a huge concession already given, justifying cutbacks elsewhere, or as already too much of a concession, one that must be pared back to be "proper."

That's been a long-running problem with solving these issues. You're lucky if you get even as far as two steps forward, one step back.

Well, yes, that's certainly true.

All you have to do is track damage totals between classes over the course of an adventuring day to realize that fighters are MILES behind anything with access to magic. As in, not even close. A single fireball from a wizard will easily do as much total damage as a fighter can do in a day.

It's part and parcel to the D&D experience for many though. And it will not change.

 

[Nefermandias]

Maneuver->

Menacing Attack​

When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to frighten the target. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

Rally​

On your turn, you can use a bonus action and expend one superiority die to bolster the resolve of one of your companions. When you do so, choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you. That creature gains temporary hit points equal to the superiority die roll + your Charisma modifier.

The Bards Inspirational healing is considered non-magical too by the way.

Please note that anyone could force a bloodied creature to surrender with a successful Intimidate check back in 4e. It was a regular combat option just like Bull Rush, Grab, Defend or Second Wind.

 

[Garthanos]

Please note that anyone could force a bloodied creature to surrender with a successful Intimidate check back in 4e. It was a regular combat option just like Bull Rush, Grab, Defend or Second Wind.

oh yes the above 5e effect is only a temporary hold the enemy back effect too... the intimidated surrender was a done deal the enemy is functionally defeated.

 

[Garthanos]

Please note that anyone could force a bloodied creature to surrender with a successful Intimidate check back in 4e. It was a regular combat option just like Bull Rush, Grab, Defend or Second Wind.

You could take a Yakuza theme and do it as a free action once per encounter when you bloody the enemy too.

 

[GreyLord]

I'm late to this party...but

Bounded Accuracy.

There is more of Bounded Accuracy (though it only goes to +15 rather than +6, meaning ability scores make things far more swingy in 5e than it did in 4e) in 4e than any other version of D&D prior.

All classes advancing at the same rate in proficieny bonuses (4e was a straight up +5 vs the +2 to +6 of 5e) and combat proficiency (+1 to +15 in 4e to the +2 to +6 in 5e).

It may not seem like much, but considering how big an impact Bounded accuracy has on 5e, I'd say it's basically the core of 5e was created by 4e. 5e basically made the bounded accuracy FAR MORE LIMITED (thus I suppose one could call it more a bounded accuracy limited to smaller numbers) than 4e did, but it's basically the same concept. 4e wasn't as small with it's numbers which made tiers where one tier would really overpower a lesser tier, whereas 5e tried to just take one tier and blanket it across 20 levels instead (so, levels 4 to 12 in 4e are the levels that 5e basically covers...but instead of having it with levels, it spread it across 20).

You see this in almost every aspect of 5e in regards to this bounded accuracy of a tier.