D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

[Staffan]

Do you mean 5e?

Yeah, 5e. Writing too fast.

Technically. You didn't have to upgrade and replace you leveled in 4e.

But there weren't any higher-level versions of fireball either in 4e (at least not in the PHB). A 9th level wizard gets ice storm, lightning serpent, Mordenkainen's sword, or wall of fire, not greater fireball.

 

[Garthanos]

But there weren't any higher-level versions of fireball either in 4e (at least not in the PHB). A 9th level wizard gets ice storm, lightning serpent, Mordenkainen's sword, or wall of fire, not greater fireball

There are a bunch of ways that fireball can also scale that does not seem to in 5e. Like feats which enhance fire attacks so they were larger area effects or not affecting allies or penetrating resistance or in general more dangerous than they were at lower levels. 4e powers also scale according to attribute increasing damage as you level higher even if the individual powers do not.

Fire scythe is btw a 9th level one might present as a fireball situationally.

 

[MichaelSomething]

5e relates to 4E like Chaotic Good relates to Lawful Good.

 

[pemerton]

This is because spells are all "spontaneous" in 5e. Because spells are not memorized to slots directly, there is no onus for spells to encapsulate all the combat power of a spell level due to utility, exploration, and social spells taking up slots.

I think there's a more straightforward explanation: casters in 3E, and in AD&D unless played at certain levels in a very particular fashion, are broken. 5e tried to unbreak them.

 

[Minigiant]

I think there's a more straightforward explanation: casters in 3E, and in AD&D unless played at certain levels in a very particular fashion, are broken. 5e tried to unbreak them.

The scaling however wasn't the real reason for that break.

The broken parts were the magic that didn't scale. The nonscaling magic justified the scaling magic.

What 4e did is seperate the broken nonscaling magic, the fear nonscaling magic, and the scaling magic into different resource silos. With combat, miraulous, and utility magic not touching, they could be balanced separately. Since your magic didn't have to worry about attackspells taking up slots of utility magic, there was no need to make either broken.

What 5e did is balance the effects directly like 4e but bring back scaling with diminishing returns.

 

[Garthanos]

But, because WotC burned so much good will during 4e, and things got so acrimonious, something had to get sacrificed moving forward. And, well, 4e wasn't exactly ripping up the charts, so, everything 4e gets the axe and then quietly added back in on the QT all the while being very careful not to reference anything 4e too directly.

Except sometimes it just seems somebody does not understand the actual value of many of the 4e features or they assume others do not.

If 5e Persuasion and Intimidation skills can, in certain contexts, impose the Charmed and Frightened conditions, then it becomes no problem if some of the 5e martial Fighter features can too.

A battlemaster can induce frightened but like all fighter effects they are single targeted (*and effectively expensive otherwise) throughout their entire career and lacking any form of real progression.

 

[Yaarel]

A battlemaster can induce frightened but like all fighter effects they are single targeted (*and effectively expensive otherwise) throughout their entire career and lacking any form of real progression.

But. If it is actually official. A Battlemaster who is strictly "nonmagical" and only using the "martial" power source but can cause the Frightened condition, is a breakthru and precedent for future nonmagical mind-effects.

This relates to "morale" whose positivity and courage can bestow temporary hit points, and so on. And all of these effects are achieved nonmagically.

 

[Garthanos]

But. If it is actually official. A Battlemaster who is strictly "nonmagical" and only using the "martial" power source but can cause the Frightened condition, is a breakthru and precedent for future nonmagical mind-effects.

This relates to "morale" whose positivity and courage can bestow temporary hit points, and so on. And all of these effects are achieved nonmagically.

Maneuver->

Menacing Attack​

When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to frighten the target. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

Rally​

On your turn, you can use a bonus action and expend one superiority die to bolster the resolve of one of your companions. When you do so, choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you. That creature gains temporary hit points equal to the superiority die roll + your Charisma modifier.

The Bards Inspirational healing is considered non-magical too by the way.

 

[Garthanos]

But. If it is actually official. A Battlemaster who is strictly "nonmagical" and only using the "martial" power source but can cause the Frightened condition, is a breakthru and precedent for future nonmagical mind-effects.

Note also short durations... and everything can be done appropriate at level 3 ... its truly poor precedence.

 

[Yaarel]

Note also short durations... and everything can be done appropriate at level 3 ... its truly poor precedence.

I hear you.

It is important, the power of a martial effect must be appropriate to the level. It must not be assumed to be less powerful than magic. When a martial effect and an arcane effect are the same level, they must be equal in potency and effectiveness.

To be fair, determining the level of a martial effect can be tricky. For example, an Eldritch Knight doesnt get spells until later at level 3, and wont get slot 4 spells until level 19! The Fighter has powerful damage dealing effects, and other kinds of effects delay until later levels. But once the "slot" of an effect is determined, it must be equal to a spell of the same slot.

Likewise, a Fighter or other martial class can have class features that are power effects at low level. For example, I feel the Eldritch Knight needs a magical fighting style at Level 1. Essentially, this "Elven Fighting Style" swaps the medium and heavy armors for an always-on Mage Armor spell instead, and additionally chooses a cantrip from the Wizard spell list. Typically, the fighting style makes the Mage Armor appear as if "silky fine chain mail". This access to the spell and cantrip is full-on magic at level 1, and balances well.

A nonmagical Fighter might use a fighting style to access similar potent effects, albeit nonmagical.