D&D 5E How is 5E like 4E?

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm not clear as to your point here -- neither system is attempting to model this, except by the fact that proficiency is on or off. In 4e, the top guy gets better at his ability at the same rate as the bottom guy -- +1 per 2 levels.

Sure. But, that 4e character faces a constant treadmill of increasing DCs, so their actual chance of success is the same as the 5e character, who doesn't just add numbers to their sheet to keep up with the rising DCs. A 4e character, your wizard, at 1st level, with a 0 stat and no proficiency in athletics, faces a DC 8 for an easy athletics challenge. That's a 65% chance of success! The same 5e wizard faces a DC 10, for a 55% chance of success. Now zoom to 20th. No build resources are put into either. The 4e wizard has picked up +10 for half level, the 5e character has not improved. They both now face an easy task. The 4e character's DC is 18, meaning they have a 65% chance of success. The 5e character's DC is 10, which has a 55% chance of success. Wait, neither actually improved!

But, let's look at a medium DC. At 1st, the 4e character faces a DC 12, for a 45% chance of success, and the 5e character faces a 15, for a 30% chance of success. At 20th, the 4e character faces a DC 25, and has a 30% chance of success. The 5e character faces a DC 15, for the same 30% chance of success. Huh. 4e lost a step.

Now, hard. DC 19 vs 20 at 1st, so a 5% difference with advantage to 4e. At 20th, the 5e character still only has a 5% chance of success, but the 4e character cannot succeed at all with a +10 vs a DC of 34.

This is the straight skill system. It's not like 4e characters actually improve at the things that they are actually doing. Sure, they improve against things they're not doing anymore, but, they're not doing those things. In play, the difference is not present, it's only in some white room conception where level 20 characters are doing level 1 stuff.

But you are comparing Apples to Oranges, because in no case is the 5e wizard going to still face the same DC 15 at level 10 or 20 that he faced at level 1, just not going to happen. That is because there are other vastly more proficient PCs around for that check who will just take it and make it trivial. This won't happen in 4e (well, it MAY, but then said PCs had to actually invest build resources).

It is also not a good comparison in another way. There are TONS of ways in which 4e PCs can and often do get bonuses to skill checks due to things they acquire (IE feats, PP, ED, items, ASI, etc.). ANY character can easily improve whichever skills they want, to any reasonable degree, and probably will make some limited improvements in many of them.

So, level 30 4e PCs will run into some situations where they have 'fallen off the track' on a few things, it happens. OTOH many things they will be roughly as likely to succeed at the 30th level equivalents of as they were long ago at level 1, and some they will be vastly better at. This is of course ignoring the whole thematic dimension of this, they are now climbing the Ice Walls of Hell, not some amateur rock climb 3 miles from home.

And that last point is one that I think goes badly for 5e, because it actively discourages that sort of challenge scaling. It works against "the world is a wondrous place" by actually punishing you for going to the wondrous and dangerous parts. 4e punishes you a BIT, but much less, and makes your comrades better than they were before to make up for it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm not sure, because this isn't the same problem, this is now an NPC intimidating an NPC. I wouldn't bother with this, or pick an outcome I liked.

Why doesn't it? DC is set by approach and task in 5e, according to the rules. The GM considers how hard they think a particular approach is to do a particular task, and is encouraged to pick easy, medium, or hard, with very hard or impossible being recommended as rare options. So, if a 20th level character wants to do something, and has a good approach, DC should reflect this. There's no reason you can't lean on things you've done for this, like "I try to start the fire, recalling what Bob the Ranger said about good firemaking." Sure, sounds easy, give it a roll. Meanwhile in 4e, the GM is expected to set the DC according to your level, which means you have about the same chance for unskilled easy tasks as the 5e guy, but you get shafted by moderate and hard taskings while the 5e guy does as well or better.

I feel like people are looking only at the numbers next to the skill/proficiency on the sheet and not at all considering how those are actually used in game.

But I am thinking of how they are used. A 20th level 4e PC is EPIC (or nearly so anyway). Starting a fire, under mundane conditions, isn't even on the menu anymore, its offscreen assumed busywork that doesn't require checks.

Starting a fire on a ledge on the ice wall of Phlegethos in a howling storm so you can administer first aid to the thief's frostbitten hand, THAT is a 20th level task! It will not be easy, and Mr Amateur Fire Maker is probably going to fail, better call in the ranger. Don't got one? Well, I hope you have someone with Survival training, you will need it!

But don't worry, this is a Skill Challenge, so we do know that failing may cost someone an HS and move things closer to disaster, but in a pinch anyone can take this check and try to make it work. At least we know what the risks and rewards are. Plus there's always things like ritual magic to try instead (or even just trying to expend a daily power to generate some warmth if that is plausible).

 

[Garthanos]

In play, the difference is not present, it's only in some white room conception where level 20 characters are doing level 1 stuff.

That 5e demigod cannot intimidate the Mayor but the DM doesn't bring the silly level 2 mayor into the story .. .that is basically a 4e admonishment not a 5e one they talk about adversaries of many many levels lower being useable as is in 5e....The difference is in 4e the numbers and rules support the advice.

 

[Ovinomancer]

But you are comparing Apples to Oranges, because in no case is the 5e wizard going to still face the same DC 15 at level 10 or 20 that he faced at level 1, just not going to happen. That is because there are other vastly more proficient PCs around for that check who will just take it and make it trivial. This won't happen in 4e (well, it MAY, but then said PCs had to actually invest build resources).

Okay, I play 5e, and that happens in my games. I'm not sure why this is stated with such authority.

It is also not a good comparison in another way. There are TONS of ways in which 4e PCs can and often do get bonuses to skill checks due to things they acquire (IE feats, PP, ED, items, ASI, etc.). ANY character can easily improve whichever skills they want, to any reasonable degree, and probably will make some limited improvements in many of them.

Are you spending those on your untrained skills, though? You can, but are you? There are ways to improve skill in 5e as well. We're talking about those skills you aren't beefing up.

And, even if you do spend the effort for the bonuses, unless they're really big from outside sources (like items or boons), you're just keeping up with the hard DC treadmill. Looking at @pemerton's characters, except for the notably large bonuses in the 40's, the next highest tier in the mid 30's gives a worse chance at success at level 30 hard tasks than a 5e character with expertise and max stat has very hard tasks (+35 needs a 7 for 4e, +17 needs an 8 for very hard). And that 5e character has no outside help from items or boons which the 4e character needs to get that bonus!

So, level 30 4e PCs will run into some situations where they have 'fallen off the track' on a few things, it happens. OTOH many things they will be roughly as likely to succeed at the 30th level equivalents of as they were long ago at level 1, and some they will be vastly better at. This is of course ignoring the whole thematic dimension of this, they are now climbing the Ice Walls of Hell, not some amateur rock climb 3 miles from home.

Again, outside of really large bonuses to 4e characters, they're actually not moving much at all. The bottom of the 4e DC treadmill keeps up with +1/2 levels, but the top is on a different track and keeps up with ASIs and with most bonuses. If you're great at something, you stay in about the same place with hard tasks but start crushing easy and medium tasks. In 5e, you actually get better at doing hard stuff, and always crush the easy stuff. If you're mediocre at stuff in 4e, easy stuff gets easier, a bit, but hard stuff gets harder. In 5e, you get a bit better at all of it. If you suck as something in 4e, good news, you won't get worse at the easy stuff, but the medium stuff gets real hard and the hard stuff gets impossible. In 5e, you stay in the same place.

I do not see how this state of affairs translates into "4e characters grow in ability and 5e characters don't!" The math is right there.

And that last point is one that I think goes badly for 5e, because it actively discourages that sort of challenge scaling. It works against "the world is a wondrous place" by actually punishing you for going to the wondrous and dangerous parts. 4e punishes you a BIT, but much less, and makes your comrades better than they were before to make up for it.

Again, this isn't something I've actually noticed. There are official adventures where you go to literal hell at level 5. The new one has your traipsing around the feywild dealing with exotic fey. There's one where you're in a frozen hellscape, but not literal hell. And that's just the published stuff. My games have been some rather wild places, and my world are plenty wonderous. This accusation feels extremely unfounded.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm not sure, because this isn't the same problem, this is now an NPC intimidating an NPC. I

PC demigod....the most common epic destiny in 4e...

DC is set by approach and task in 5e, according to the rules.

which is level an approach or a task?

 

[Ovinomancer]

But I am thinking of how they are used. A 20th level 4e PC is EPIC (or nearly so anyway). Starting a fire, under mundane conditions, isn't even on the menu anymore, its offscreen assumed busywork that doesn't require checks.

I agree. I wouldn't ask my level 20 5e characters to bother with it, either. I was looking for a quick example to showcase how approach matters and can fold in all of the things you were touting for 4e and picked starting a fire. Eh.

Starting a fire on a ledge on the ice wall of Phlegethos in a howling storm so you can administer first aid to the thief's frostbitten hand, THAT is a 20th level task! It will not be easy, and Mr Amateur Fire Maker is probably going to fail, better call in the ranger. Don't got one? Well, I hope you have someone with Survival training, you will need it!

Sure, that sounds really hard to me! So that level 20 EPIC 4e guy who's learned a bit along and along has... no chance of starting that fire. They're +10, maybe +12, and the DC is 34. Granted, because that sounds really hard, the 5e guy can't do it either, so same same. If it was just hard, though, the 5e guy has a 5% chance.

This is my point -- the bounded nature of the DCs in 5e actually means that the impact is pretty similar between the systems.

But don't worry, this is a Skill Challenge, so we do know that failing may cost someone an HS and move things closer to disaster, but in a pinch anyone can take this check and try to make it work. At least we know what the risks and rewards are. Plus there's always things like ritual magic to try instead (or even just trying to expend a daily power to generate some warmth if that is plausible).

Oh, sure, Skill Challenges is definitely a tool I very much like. I added it to my 5e games.

DISCLAIMER: again, I feel the need to say that I really like 4e. It's a great system for which my esteem has only grown over time. I'm not putting 4e down, and I'm certainly not claiming 5e is better, in any way. My druthers would have been for an iterated 4e system rather than 5e, but I like 5e well enough.

 

[Ovinomancer]

PC demigod....the most common epic destiny in 4e...

which is level an approach or a task?

Ah, so now we've reversed the example -- the PC is intimidating the NPC? I don't see the issue. Let's say you tanked CHA, and, as part of some demigod hazing, were cursed with a negative CHA. You go to intimidate the mayor in 5e. You do. No roll. Why? Because your approach is that you're frigging demigod, and the task is to cow a mortal. Done. This is not an issue.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm not sure, because this isn't the same problem, this is now an NPC intimidating an NPC. I wouldn't bother with this, or pick an outcome I liked.

Why doesn't it? DC is set by approach and task in 5e, according to the rules. The GM considers how hard they think a particular approach is to do a particular task, and is encouraged to pick easy, medium, or hard, with very hard or impossible being recommended as rare options. So, if a 20th level character wants to do something, and has a good approach, DC should reflect this. There's no reason you can't lean on things you've done for this, like "I try to start the fire, recalling what Bob the Ranger said about good firemaking." Sure, sounds easy, give it a roll. Meanwhile in 4e, the GM is expected to set the DC according to your level

Nope is that part of a skill challenge is it supposed to be challenging... no?... then poof its done (just like it might be in 5e) or set it way low if you think it should be that easy. The challenging difficulties and stuff associated with those are for bigger story significant things.

 

[Garthanos]

Ah, so now we've reversed the example --

You complained that one shouldn't intimidate a PC which I agree in most any edition social skills in D&D land are rarely influencing pcs there are other games in which that is not so true.

 

[Garthanos]

I agree. I wouldn't ask my level 20 5e characters to bother with it, either. I was looking for a quick example to showcase how approach matters and can fold in all of the things you were touting for 4e and picked starting a fire. Eh.

My problem DM fix it is incredibly erratic every DM I have asked about stunts on this forum was so completely all over the board that I would not want to play with anybody I didnt have a lot of relationship with.