D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

Chaosmancer

Legend
Neither Ned nor his merchant mentor are fools, and they have given some thought to preparing this story—it is not possible for the characters to discern Ned's true motives. Indeed, to add verisimilitude to the story, Ned has a lump on the back of his head (inflicted, with sadistic delight, by the merchant before Ned left his company).

Side note.... Huh?!

Is this supposed to be a thing in the rules, that if you have thought through a prepared a story it is impossible to use insight and figure out something is wrong? I think that is a very very poor precedent to set.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
Feel free to tell me what is inaccurate about what I said is likely the case with your games. I already ascertained correctly that time doesn't often matter which immediately reduces difficulty in your exploration challenges.

And how does time not often mattering reduce the difficulty of my combat challenges or social challeges? Or is exploration the only pillar where you are required to have a ticking clock?

You lost time. You made noise. You lost the unseen servant and creating another one will cost more time. You still have to deal with the trap. As I've already explained, whether this is positive depends on how you ask the dramatic question.

But again, since time doesn't often matter much in your games (so you say), this is no big deal, which makes rituals like unseen servant better than in a game where time does often matter.

Right, so if you don't have a ticking clock then the only downside is making noise... which is the exact same downside that we would have if the rogue failed. Something you still have not addressed.

I'll refer to my earlier question. In a pure exploration challenge, with no combat or social, other than having a death trap that will kill the players if they don't finish in X time, how do you make any of this matter? If we are just exploring for the sake of exploring, do you force a time crunch on the party? Or is this not supposed to be a challenge to explore for the sake of exploration?

It's only a versatile and powerful tool because of how you run your games.

Or because I read the text of the spell. For example, I realized that it says that you summon it within 60 ft... So by looking through a window you can summon it inside a building and use it to unlock the doors to get in. Since it is formless, then it squeezing through an inch crack is entirely possible.

Wandering monsters make the exploration challenge more difficulty by adding an element with which the players must contend when making decisions. The difficulty is in the decision making. It's not "How do I locate the trap?" It's "How do I locate the trap quickly and without drawing attention to the party?" That's a harder question to answer, made harder when resources are low. So, difficulty increased. In your games, when time doesn't matter, the answer is easier - cast a ritual that costs me no resources and take all the time I want. Perhaps you can see why your objections ring a bit hollow to people who run their games differently.

No, because my objection is that "fight a monster" isn't an exploration challenge, it is a combat challenge. So, your go to solution for exploration getting to easy is to turn to combat. I don't understand how you can't see why that is a problem for the exploration pillar.

You don't make combat challenges more difficult by adding secret doors to the room. You don't make social challenges more difficult by giving players a block puzzle. You are just switching to a different pillar.

And one can absolutely have time pressure every time and that form of pressure can take a lot of different forms or be applied in more than one way. In earlier versions of the game, it was baked right into the design. And it works great in D&D 5e, too. The DMG advocates for random encounters, tracking time, and event-based adventures. You certainly can play it where time doesn't matter, too, but it should be obvious by now what some of the trade-offs are when it comes to exploration challenges.

The trade off being that with no time pressure and no monsters to fight, you are saying there is no challenge. Or at least a greatly reduced challenge. Which leads us right into problems with exploration, it doesn't contain the tools to solve the problems it has.
 


Asisreo

Patron Badass
Yes, ideally it is to create tension and conflict, but rarely do traps actually accomplish that goal. Usually they are just a nuisance.
Then they are poorly designed traps.
And if your entire point is that a rogue with a high enough set of values can't fail, which is why you sent him ahead... why did you bother with the trap in the first place?
I don't cater the world to my players. People don't suddenly stop using a lock because there's an expert lockpicker in town.

Once I create something, its based off of the world and the story I'm telling. I still have some DC 10 checks in my high level adventures and I don't know if it will be useless or not. Because rogues die, wizards can get wish penalties, and fighters can be frightened I don't make assumptions.
I have had multiple DMs respond to cleric players in the party whose passive perception reached 23 with the declaration that they were no longer going to bother using traps or even really ambushes because a Passive 23 sees basically everything. Oh, and this was by about 5th level.
Those DM's did those clerics a disservice. Suddenly ambush-type creatures don't ambush anymore because the cleric is too sharp? Then what's the point of making your cleric sharp?

The whole point was to notice stuff but since the DM is upset that the players protected themselves, he threw up his hands and said screw it. Its petty and a hate when DMs do that.

Besides, high Perception doesn't beat ambushes and traps for the whole group, it just has the cleric notice those things that are off in the environment.

He sees an odd glare in his path but he has to look closer to determine if its a shard of glass or a tripwire.
 

Side note.... Huh?!

Is this supposed to be a thing in the rules, that if you have thought through a prepared a story it is impossible to use insight and figure out something is wrong? I think that is a very very poor precedent to set.
I tend to agree. Published Adventures tend to do some things that clash with the PHB/DMG rules - like setting DCs for tasks for which a goal and approach has not even been declared yet by a player. But I’d say it’s really up to the DM to decide what to do with Ned.

In this specific case, if a player wanted to say their PC was suspicious of Ned right from the get-go, a DM might adjudicate in any number of ways: Ned appears nervous, or Ned has a lump on his head and appears confused, or Ned knows the jig is up and bolts from the room, or perhaps call for an opposed check where failure means the PC can’t get a read on him and success means there’s something Ned seems to be hiding. It may indeed be impossible for them to sense Ned’s motives until the PCs have spent more time with him and the DM has had a chance to telegraph some of Ned’s quirks.

In any case, the players can decide their PCs think whatever they want. And the DM might decide to validate those thoughts immediately or slowly reveal that the thoughts are correct or not over the course of play.

More generally, I’ve always tweaked things a bit in published adventures - after reading the adventure thoroughly - to make them work differently/better for our table.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
It's not that there are no rules (slim as they may be), but, rather, that the DM has a lot of leeway of what rules and rulings apply along with when and how. But even if there are rules on the DM side of things, this does IMHO make it a bit more nebulous on the player-side of things. Again, the DMG itself admits that the combat is more structured than other pillars.
The DM always decides when the rules come into play in any pillar, even if there are more rules in the combat pillar to draw upon than in exploration or social interaction. The player only says what they want to do. That's all.

(1) I'm not sure that it matters that all classes should have some exploration ability, because what matters is that they don't (at least according to your estimation), and (2) the Ranger's exploration abilities are mostly about skipping the exploration content, which is IMO questionable design that doesn't necessarily make the Ranger feel cool at what it should be good at.
I hear this claim about the ranger "skipping" over things. Having played a lot of rangers and seen a lot of rangers played in my games which (depending on the adventure or campaign) have a strong exploration element, I don't buy this claim at all. Having a ranger in this sort of game can be quite good, but again, there are trade-offs. Please tell me what is being "skipped."
 

Aldarc

Legend
The DM always decides when the rules come into play in any pillar, even if there are more rules in the combat pillar to draw upon than in exploration or social interaction. The player only says what they want to do. That's all.
This is more truism than insight.

I hear this claim about the ranger "skipping" over things. Having played a lot of rangers and seen a lot of rangers played in my games which (depending on the adventure or campaign) have a strong exploration element, I don't buy this claim at all. Having a ranger in this sort of game can be quite good, but again, there are trade-offs. Please tell me what is being "skipped."
Keeping in mind that WotC has also made similar claims when talking about their own Ranger design. 🤷‍♂️
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
And how does time not often mattering reduce the difficulty of my combat challenges or social challeges? Or is exploration the only pillar where you are required to have a ticking clock?
Combat challenges have a ticking clock built in already.

Right, so if you don't have a ticking clock then the only downside is making noise... which is the exact same downside that we would have if the rogue failed. Something you still have not addressed.

I'll refer to my earlier question. In a pure exploration challenge, with no combat or social, other than having a death trap that will kill the players if they don't finish in X time, how do you make any of this matter? If we are just exploring for the sake of exploring, do you force a time crunch on the party? Or is this not supposed to be a challenge to explore for the sake of exploration?
Wandering monsters/random encounters are ticking clocks.

Or because I read the text of the spell. For example, I realized that it says that you summon it within 60 ft... So by looking through a window you can summon it inside a building and use it to unlock the doors to get in. Since it is formless, then it squeezing through an inch crack is entirely possible.
I'm not so sure you can cast a spell through a window (unless that window is open). You are clearly very permissible in your interpretation of rules and spells. You said that an unseen servant was a creature, for example. The more handwavy you are, the easier your challenges become. That's on you, not the rules. (And it's fine if that's what you prefer.)

No, because my objection is that "fight a monster" isn't an exploration challenge, it is a combat challenge. So, your go to solution for exploration getting to easy is to turn to combat. I don't understand how you can't see why that is a problem for the exploration pillar.

You don't make combat challenges more difficult by adding secret doors to the room. You don't make social challenges more difficult by giving players a block puzzle. You are just switching to a different pillar.
Pillars don't necessarily stand on their own. You absolutely can make a combat challenge more difficult by adding secret doors or a social interaction challenge more difficult by giving them a puzzle. In any case, the time pressure being applied by a wandering monster makes decisions in an exploration challenge more difficult as I have already shown.

The trade off being that with no time pressure and no monsters to fight, you are saying there is no challenge. Or at least a greatly reduced challenge. Which leads us right into problems with exploration, it doesn't contain the tools to solve the problems it has.
No, I'm saying there is a challenge, but it's less difficult. And there are no problems except the ones you yourself are creating by how you run your game.
 


TheSword

Legend
Whoa, whoa, whoa - we just spent the past twenty pages being told that casters absolutely DON'T have any exploration abilities. That choosing these abilities are huge investments and no characters would EVER use them. I mean, didn't you argue against using unseen servant just a page or so back.

And, I really didn't understand it then. Unseen servant pushes down with 30 pounds of force every round, every 5 feet. This catches most traps in a corridor. That means I'm moving 5 feet every round, or 50 feet per minute. That's 500 feet per AD&D turn, or just a bit faster than FOUR TIMES the expected indoor travel speed in AD&D. And you're complaining that this is too slow? How fast do you think the party moves in a dungeon?
My personal opinion is that unseen servant isn’t as versatile as you think it is. 30 lbs is what 12kg. That really isn’t very much. There’s no evidence that it can push down on an entire 5ft x 5ft square in one round. It’s also a ritual with a 10 min casting time.

There are plenty of spells that aren’t free but still add to the exploration… pretty much ever divination spell, spells that change shape, or transport, or wall of stone for making a bridge, or fly, levitate etc. comprehend languages et all. All these are explorations. Here’s an idea, instead of abusing unseen servant to leverage free detection and boring the rest of the party to tears, just cast Find Traps.
 

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