D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Swarmkeeper]

Maybe some of these resources will help?

Honestly? I don't know. With the way the game is written and the "expected challenges" of traps I can't really think of any way to do it without completely rewriting the game.

The best version of traps I have found is the "click" method, I think from Dungeon Dudes, which basically allows the players to react to a trap being triggered to try and avoid it by declaring an action. It still doesn't really solve a lot of the bigger problems with traps.

Testament of Malice.pdf

www.sersavictory.com

Puzzles and Riddles are a constant headache, and I've tried to figure out a way to utilize them that isn't just challenging the players while they take a break from DnD.

Puzzles Suck

I’m sick of dealing with questions about how to implement puzzles properly from GMs who insist that puzzles just suck. So, it’s time for me to act. By writing 5,000 words about it and t…

theangrygm.com

Resource management is fairly boring, but mostly it is a solved problem. Barring needing a wagon to carry water (and then hiring a small army to care for the wagon and the mules) it isn't something that is a challenge I've found.

Can't find any good... er... resources for you here.

But, perhaps the biggest, the game just doesn't make the world fantastical enough.

Sounds like something the players and DM are responsible for. The game provides the basic parameters, the people provide the imagination to make it fantastic. No?

Most exploration problems are things handled the same way at level 2 as they are at level 5 as they are at level 17. The numbers get bigger, but the actual mechanisms rarely change. And there is no "dangerous wilderness" past around level 5, it simply doesn't exist.

No ice storms or volcanoes or tidal waves or extreme temperatures or anti-magic zones or strange planes in your games?
Part of where I'm going here: not every character is proficient at every saving throw.

The closest to something really good I've found in 5e so far is the Tasha's environments, those are a really cool idea, but a lot of it is still wandering monsters to fight and traps that hit your hp. It doesn't offer a lot of options, not in the way I was hoping.

As was said, the best parts of exploration are when you are discovering the context of the adventure, finding the clues, but you can't make mechanics for that. You can't make mechanics for descriptions.

Let’s Look At Exploration — Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)

One of our primary goals with Level Up is to expand and fully flesh out the game’s exploration pillar.

www.levelup5e.com

so, I'm really not sure. There are a lot of different problems, and I'm not sure there is one solution.

 

[Hussar]

Warning: spoilers for U1 ahead (hidden)

Well, except for the potentially-helpful-later treasure that diligent explorers might find; and except for the

Spoiler

yellow-mold death trap that wiped out 5 characters of a party of 7 when I ran this last month

; and except for the

Spoiler

"captive" NPC to be rescued upstairs, who is actually a spy for the smugglers

; and the

Spoiler

secret door down to the smugglers' lair that bypasses some other traps etc.

; then sure, there's nothing to be found.

Yeah, your group is definitely not my group. Explore everything.

I'm surprised you didn't have the NPC make some noise, even just thumping the floor, so as to attract attention.

Edited for typos

I played the module as written - the prisoner is bound and gagged. He can't make any noise. Additionally, in 5e, that yellow mold thing doesn't exist. Sorry, I should have specified I was running Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

If you look at the module and what @the Sword posted, you'll note that everything in there points downwards. Nothing suggests there is anything interesting on the second floor.

 

[Lanefan]

I played the module as written - the prisoner is bound and gagged. He can't make any noise. Additionally, in 5e, that yellow mold thing doesn't exist. Sorry, I should have specified I was running Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

Ah, that's a big difference. I'm talking about the original U1.

And even a bound and gagged prisoner can thrash around and thump on the floor if-when he hears - or even thinks he hears - noises below. (if Ghosts of Saltmarsh specifically says that he can't, I'd count that as an error and overrule it)

If you look at the module and what @the Sword posted, you'll note that everything in there points downwards. Nothing suggests there is anything interesting on the second floor.

As an adventurer, the fact that there's nothing suggesting anything of interest up there is the very reason we should go and check it out! Either there really is nothing, in which case no harm done except loss of a bit of time; or there is something there which we'd have otherwise missed.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The point is the "obstacle" or "challenge" doesn't have to be an obstacle or challenge. They don't "lose" the chasm either. They just miss the treasure. No evil cackling about how they miss out. If anything, I'd be a bit disappointed that I wrote cool treasure but they just missed out on it. I can't predict the players' decisions which is the crutch of this whole conversation.

Seems counter-intuitive to your own words when you described the wizard shooting themselves in the foot for missing useful treasure by successfully crossing the chasm.

I can't predict the player's decisions either, which is why they may find somehting if they decide to crawl down, but it won't be specifically placed that the only way to see it is by getting down there.

You're trying to outsmart the traps. That's what you do as adventurers. Its true the DM makes the traps but its to add tension and conflict, not to make the players feel bad.

And when the next trap "just so happens" to be something not covered in the SOP, like Lanefan's example of the handle that blasts cold?

Yes, ideally it is to create tension and conflict, but rarely do traps actually accomplish that goal. Usually they are just a nuisance.

Its completely up to context. There might be time pressures or the trap blocks off access to a helpful but optional portion of the dungeon.

Why its there is completely up to the DM, but so long as the DM actually puts in work for the game, the trap activating might be bad.

A rogue with Perception and Investigation expertise might be able to bypass this trap just as easily if not moreso.

And if the rogue fails? Then with the time pressure we are in the same situation, except the rogue is dead from a multi-ton stone. Is there a helpful optional portion? Well, it doesn't matter, it is sealed off and the rogue is dead.

And if your entire point is that a rogue with a high enough set of values can't fail, which is why you sent him ahead... why did you bother with the trap in the first place?I have had multiple DMs respond to cleric players in the party whose passive perception reached 23 with the declaration that they were no longer going to bother using traps or even really ambushes because a Passive 23 sees basically everything. Oh, and this was by about 5th level.

So, yeah, I get you can put some context in place that means that the boulder falling is really bad for the party, but unless the point of your boulder trap is that the party cannot fail to detect it and bypass it... then the Unseen Servant is safer for the party. Because while the boulder fell, it didn't kill anyone, and the worst case scenario is avoided.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I would say it helps with some. I'm not sure a claim of "vast majority" really holds up in any objective sense. Maybe that's true with the sort of traps you're used to in your games, but that's not every game. As I said upthread, when someone has an assertion, complaint, or objection, we have to imagine what must be true in that person's game for the assertion, complaint, or objection to make sense. A claim of "vast majority" tells me that the variation in traps presented is likely to be very small, probably a lot of one-and-done traps, and that the DM's interpretation of what the unseen servant can do is overly broad. In those conditions, you have a point. But that's only true of some games.

Well, other than magic you really refused to discuss any sort of triggering traps that wouldn't be the case, but you are free to judge my games off of very little information if you want.

Again, setting off a trap isn't always good or wise and may ultimately be a failure - unseen servant or no - depending on what is at stake. If it's a complex trap that resets, for example, it only reveals the trap is there and perhaps what it's capable of doing. It does not answer any other questions about what to do next.

So, again, how is this not a positive? We've found the trap, we know what it does, and we learned all of that information with zero injuries to the party and no resources lost.

Sure, there is still a "what to do next" but that would exist regardless of how we discovered the trap, and most other ways of discovering it lead to injuries in the party. And, depending on how this complex trap worked, the Unseen Servant could be used to solve it. I'm still not seeing a negative.

And, just to make sure you haven't forgotten, this entire multi-page discussion has been over a single 1st level ritual, by itself. Meanwhile, most of the responses have been "context" or "setting off the trap may be bad", which always ignores the fact that the rogue could have also set off the trap, leaving us in the same situation, but with an injured or dead rogue.

For one, the use of rituals to overcome exploration challenges isn't a problem in my view. But it also isn't as "free" as some would have us believe - at least not in all games. It's a problem in some games that are run in particular ways, perhaps. So the question is, as I see it, "What is it about how I'm prepping and running my game that creates these conditions?" not "What the heck is wrong with these rules?"

Any character can get it as a feat, along with other powerful and useful options. Most casters have it as an option and all of them have access to ritual casting. It may not be 100% free, but the cost is really low for something that is as versatile and powerful a tool as this. Heck, I've only talked about is in the terms of traps, not even in how it allows you access into locked houses. Or dozens of other uses.

Further, time pressure by way of wandering monsters or countdowns is simply a way to increase the difficulty of an exploration challenge. It isn't a punishment. It makes the decisions the players need to make harder. Without it, you're decreasing difficulty and it's no wonder your unseen servant is an unstoppable trap destroying machine. So, again, it's worth considering how you're designing and presenting your challenges first.

Wandering monsters doesn't increase the challenge of exploration, it adds combat to equation. Once the wandering monster is dead, the exploration scenario is 100% identical to how it was, barring any lost resources from combat. Which would be the same possible resources lost from a planned combat.

Timers are a way to add pressure, sure, you can't do things the "proper way" because there isn't time. This doesn't increase the difficulty of the actual challenges though, it just reduces your options to those that you can afford to take. And, while you can add time pressures few times, you can't add them every single time. And if you find yourself being forced to add time pressures, then clearly there is something wrong in how you are desiging and preparing, because you need to prevent certain solutions before they can even occur.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don’t think you’re wrong there. A lot of exploration doesn’t require a roll, it requires a decision to take a course of action.

And that’s just fine. Not everything has to come down to a dice roll to be a challenge. Sometimes a mystery is a challenge or decision making. These things can be just as important as dice rolling. Decision making can be extremely difficult… agonizing even.

As an example, the players had to decide whether or not to wear armour as they snuck into the mine. Armour would make them far more conspicuous and stand out amid the regular miners, but it would protect them if they did get caught. That was a challenging decision. It required thought. They ended up breaking into one of the mine workshops, loading their armour into an empty crate and carried that into the mine as if it was full of tools.

100% agree, that would be an important decision, though I will note that it had to lean on combat, but you're building on the example already given.

But, also note, you are the first person to start talking about decisions that don't require a die roll instead of challenging what kind of trap triggers a player could see from a distance. These are the parts that are interesting and have an impact, where the players have the information and are deciding how to use it.

 

[Hussar]

I don’t think you’re wrong there. A lot of exploration doesn’t require a roll, it requires a decision to take a course of action.

Honestly? I think this is the heart of the issue.

As you just described it, a lot of exploration is basically free form. There's no rules, there's no actual game there. It's just a series of free form Q&A statements that gets to a point where you begin engaging with the game again.

Note, there is absolutely nothing wrong with free form gaming. I've done it, it's fun. But, it does REALLY rely on the group, rather than the mechanics being any help. What I mean is, since there are no mechanics, the DM is pretty much 100% responsible for everything. I guess that's what's been commented on all the way along when people were talking about how it's very vague in so many areas. How do you find that secret door was the example before. We had two, contradictory answers, both claiming to be correct, and apparently, it's not a problem that the rules contradict each other.

So, yes, IF the DM is right in the groove to do this, AND the players are happy with free form play, AND the players are not going to leverage the mechanics that are present in the game that does go a long way towards skipping over exploration play, THEN exploration can be a ton of fun.

Which, from the POV of the OP, is probably why it's problematic. The other two pillars are nowhere near as DM dependent.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Maybe some of these resources will help?

Testament of Malice.pdf

www.sersavictory.com

Puzzles Suck

I’m sick of dealing with questions about how to implement puzzles properly from GMs who insist that puzzles just suck. So, it’s time for me to act. By writing 5,000 words about it and t…

theangrygm.com

Can't find any good... er... resources for you here.


Sounds like something the players and DM are responsible for. The game provides the basic parameters, the people provide the imagination to make it fantastic. No?


No ice storms or volcanoes or tidal waves or extreme temperatures or anti-magic zones or strange planes in your games?
Part of where I'm going here: not every character is proficient at every saving throw.

Let’s Look At Exploration — Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)

One of our primary goals with Level Up is to expand and fully flesh out the game’s exploration pillar.

www.levelup5e.com

I'm not going to be able to reference most of these for a while, but I'll try to look at some of them for the sake of the conversation. I did want to pull out these parts though.


"Sounds like something the players and DM are responsible for. The game provides the basic parameters, the people provide the imagination to make it fantastic. No?"

Eh, yes and no. I think I do a fairly decent job of it myself, but a lot of DMs... don't. We are in a normal forest. We are in mountains. We are in a cave. There aren't a lot of... anything interesting. Or if there is it is a pretty description and no substance. As a DM, I can put in what I want, but as a player... not as much.



"No ice storms or volcanoes or tidal waves or extreme temperatures or anti-magic zones or strange planes in your games?
Part of where I'm going here: not every character is proficient at every saving throw."

Again, bits and pieces.

First off, no, I don't have anti-magic in my games. That stuff breaks more rules and is more trouble than it is worth.

Extreme temperatures... aren't that threatening. Extreme cold is auto-passed if you are wearing winter gear, and a DC 10 check if you aren't. For a level 15 party who for some reason is walking in the snow? They are probably going to be fine. Extreme heat is even more forgiving. Sure, disadvantage if you are wearing heavy clothing or medium or heavy armor, but DC 5 and only if you don't have access to drinkable water. A 15th level fighter can trivially walk in this heat for 5 hours without water before even needing to roll. They essentially auto-pass or maybe take a single level of exhaustion.. which is recovered by long resting.

Tidal waves are certainly threatening, but to the level that you simply run from them. Though, I'm sure a 15th level druid might have a few ways to deal with a Tidal wave if they were clever.

Ice storm... extreme cold but you also get disadvantage on perception checks.

Volcano, well those are only dangerous if you fall in the lava. But other than fighting in a currently erupting volcano, there isn't much that you can do with that.



Looking over this list.. yeah, you can have a tidal wave hit the city. Or a volcanoe erupt, but beyond that? Make sure you pack a winter coat and carry water and you are fine in 90% of all other situations even at level 1. By level 9 to 15... what challenges? This stuff doesn't register, and the game doesn't really have a next level, except for the planes... and those that even apply are usually things like "DC 10 check or you become evil" which isn't really a challenge and is more of an annoyance that I don't want.

So, the rules really don't seem to provide an environment that is actually meant to be incredibly challenging, even to high level characters.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I played the module as written - the prisoner is bound and gagged. He can't make any noise. Additionally, in 5e, that yellow mold thing doesn't exist. Sorry, I should have specified I was running Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

If you look at the module and what @the Sword posted, you'll note that everything in there points downwards. Nothing suggests there is anything interesting on the second floor.

Not to get too nitpicky here but... he can absolutely make noise to get the attention of the PCs. Read the Adventure summary and the sidebar in Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

Spoiler

His whole thing is a ruse to gain the characters' trust.

Spoiler: A Man on the Inside (part of the Adventure Summary)

A merchant in Saltmarsh who profits from the illegal activities of Sanbalet has taken desperate action to ensure that the smuggling operation continues. The merchant sent a local thug, Ned Shakeshaft, to the house to await the characters in a remote bedroom on the second floor.

Ned pretends to have been knocked out, gagged, bound, and left to die by unseen attackers. After being "rescued" by the characters, he aims to sow dissent, cause accidents, and otherwise make trouble as they explore the house.

More information on Ned and how to incorporate him into the adventure can be found in area 15.

Spoiler: Snake in the Grass (sidebar)

Ned tells the characters he is a traveler from Seaton who entered the house the previous night to find a place to sleep during his journey to Saltmarsh where he hoped to find work as an adventurer. He entered through the back door and had only reached the kitchen when he was attacked from behind and knocked unconscious. He awoke some hours ago—bound, gagged, and stripped of his possessions—in this room. He did not see his attackers nor has he heard any sounds in the house. Now he would like to be released and to join the characters in their mission.

Neither Ned nor his merchant mentor are fools, and they have given some thought to preparing this story—it is not possible for the characters to discern Ned's true motives. Indeed, to add verisimilitude to the story, Ned has a lump on the back of his head (inflicted, with sadistic delight, by the merchant before Ned left his company).

What Ned Wants.
Ned wants to manipulate the characters into abandoning their mission. He tries to achieve this by playing up the dangers of the place and causing accidents as they explore. The closer the characters get to discovering the truth about the smugglers, the more desperate he becomes. When it became clear he can't warn the characters off, he'll try to ambush them with a poisoned weapon during a fight against other creatures.

 

[iserith]

Well, other than magic you really refused to discuss any sort of triggering traps that wouldn't be the case, but you are free to judge my games off of very little information if you want.

Feel free to tell me what is inaccurate about what I said is likely the case with your games. I already ascertained correctly that time doesn't often matter which immediately reduces difficulty in your exploration challenges.

So, again, how is this not a positive? We've found the trap, we know what it does, and we learned all of that information with zero injuries to the party and no resources lost.

Sure, there is still a "what to do next" but that would exist regardless of how we discovered the trap, and most other ways of discovering it lead to injuries in the party. And, depending on how this complex trap worked, the Unseen Servant could be used to solve it. I'm still not seeing a negative.

And, just to make sure you haven't forgotten, this entire multi-page discussion has been over a single 1st level ritual, by itself. Meanwhile, most of the responses have been "context" or "setting off the trap may be bad", which always ignores the fact that the rogue could have also set off the trap, leaving us in the same situation, but with an injured or dead rogue.

You lost time. You made noise. You lost the unseen servant and creating another one will cost more time. You still have to deal with the trap. As I've already explained, whether this is positive depends on how you ask the dramatic question.

But again, since time doesn't often matter much in your games (so you say), this is no big deal, which makes rituals like unseen servant better than in a game where time does often matter.

Any character can get it as a feat, along with other powerful and useful options. Most casters have it as an option and all of them have access to ritual casting. It may not be 100% free, but the cost is really low for something that is as versatile and powerful a tool as this. Heck, I've only talked about is in the terms of traps, not even in how it allows you access into locked houses. Or dozens of other uses.

It's only a versatile and powerful tool because of how you run your games.

Wandering monsters doesn't increase the challenge of exploration, it adds combat to equation. Once the wandering monster is dead, the exploration scenario is 100% identical to how it was, barring any lost resources from combat. Which would be the same possible resources lost from a planned combat.

Timers are a way to add pressure, sure, you can't do things the "proper way" because there isn't time. This doesn't increase the difficulty of the actual challenges though, it just reduces your options to those that you can afford to take. And, while you can add time pressures few times, you can't add them every single time. And if you find yourself being forced to add time pressures, then clearly there is something wrong in how you are desiging and preparing, because you need to prevent certain solutions before they can even occur.

Wandering monsters make the exploration challenge more difficulty by adding an element with which the players must contend when making decisions. The difficulty is in the decision making. It's not "How do I locate the trap?" It's "How do I locate the trap quickly and without drawing attention to the party?" That's a harder question to answer, made harder when resources are low. So, difficulty increased. In your games, when time doesn't matter, the answer is easier - cast a ritual that costs me no resources and take all the time I want. Perhaps you can see why your objections ring a bit hollow to people who run their games differently.

And one can absolutely have time pressure every time and that form of pressure can take a lot of different forms or be applied in more than one way. In earlier versions of the game, it was baked right into the design. And it works great in D&D 5e, too. The DMG advocates for random encounters, tracking time, and event-based adventures. You certainly can play it where time doesn't matter, too, but it should be obvious by now what some of the trade-offs are when it comes to exploration challenges.