D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
It’s not skipping the travel, it’s just making it easier.

It’s not stopping the need to navigate, it’s meaning the ranger can’t get lost. They still need to work out where they are going and how to get there.
No they don't. They can say, "I'm headed to the X on the map," and they cannot get lost on the way there. This literally means they cannot take a wrong turn. "No need to navigate, because if I go in the wrong direction, that's fixed because I cannot be lost."

What you're saying is that they need to navigate just like normal, and if they don't, then... what? They can't get lost. What's the outcome of failing to navigate or plan a route?
 

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Vaalingrade

Legend
Yeah, Dad needs to talk to his family about what they find fun and do that.
Thing is, the game is aware enough that enough people hate this king of thing that it provides all kinds of mechanics to mitigate it... then DMs all get together and conspire about how to circumvent that.

Like the entire ranger class is garbage except for the ability to avoid travel annoyance and people are trying to take that away up to and including surprise landsharks!
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I'm not so sure you can cast a spell through a window (unless that window is open).
Gray area - too many cases where the wording (or interpretation) is "line of sight" where what they really mean is "unobstructed line of effect". You have line of sight through a glass window, but do not if in magical darkness. You don't have line of effect through a glass window but you do have line of effect through magical darkness (in an open area).

Also, to me that "summon within 60' " is just lazy wording; the Servant can go up to 60' away from you, sure, but I've always had it that anything summoned (or created, in this case) appears a few feet in front of the caster, who can then send it off to do whatever.
You are clearly very permissible in your interpretation of rules and spells. You said that an unseen servant was a creature, for example. The more handwavy you are, the easier your challenges become. That's on you, not the rules. (And it's fine if that's what you prefer.)
Agreed.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Thing is, the game is aware enough that enough people hate this king of thing that it provides all kinds of mechanics to mitigate it... then DMs all get together and conspire about how to circumvent that.

Like the entire ranger class is garbage except for the ability to avoid travel annoyance and people are trying to take that away up to and including surprise landsharks!
The game certainly allows for different focuses and options, but I doubt they were crafted to try to defeat DMs who are conspiring to present content the players don't find fun.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
However, if you can't see it coming then there is no meaningful interaction with it.
The good old arrow and spear traps that deal 1d6 damage don't really allow players any ways to play with them. Once they have gone off, there's nothing left but to shrug and be on your way with 4 hp less.
Exactly; and that missing 4 h.p. might later be the difference between life and death.

Traps like this are simply means of attrition; whittling the party down a little bit at a time until they're too weak to face whatever comes next.
 

J.Quondam

CR 1/8
Thing is, the game is aware enough that enough people hate this king of thing that it provides all kinds of mechanics to mitigate it... then DMs all get together and conspire about how to circumvent that.

Like the entire ranger class is garbage except for the ability to avoid travel annoyance and people are trying to take that away up to and including surprise landsharks!
To be fair, if a landshark is not a surprise, something is wrong.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
No they don't. They can say, "I'm headed to the X on the map," and they cannot get lost on the way there. This literally means they cannot take a wrong turn. "No need to navigate, because if I go in the wrong direction, that's fixed because I cannot be lost."

What you're saying is that they need to navigate just like normal, and if they don't, then... what? They can't get lost. What's the outcome of failing to navigate or plan a route?
That's all well and good if you know where X is on the map, but its use is limited if they only know X is somewhere in the area of Y.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
That's all well and good if you know where X is on the map, but its use is limited if they only know X is somewhere in the area of Y.
Okay. Let's say I don't know where X is other than in the area of Y and I just head off to get to X. What's the consequence of doing so without plan or navigation? Is it that I don't get to X because I get...?
 

I addressed dancing lights, light, and produce flame upthread in response to your previous assertions. Here's the post. As to the others, here goes:
  • Druidcraft. The DMG has weather tables right on page 109.
  • Guidance. As you note, the task needs to be shorter than a minute. I set most tasks at 10 minutes (for a given sized area) - search for traps or secret doors, figure out how they operate, pick a lock, loot, etc. Not much of an issue here.
  • Mage Hand. First you have to find the trap. But even so, I don't think one can say mage hand will obviate the need to worry about most traps. Some, maybe.
  • Mending. I know many DMs treat it as "fix anything," but the spell has its limits. It can only repair a single break or tear in an object that is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension. If the object was shattered or has more than a single break or tear, you're out of luck.

  • Alarm. Yes, quite useful. It's 11 minutes per ritual casting though. What's the frequency of wandering monster checks? What's the opportunity cost of having, say, the wizard unavailable to figure out how a secret door or a trap works? Or your ranger keeping watch for danger? And if it is a ranger casting it, they had to prepare it which is one fewer hunter's mark. Okay by me.
  • Comprehend Languages. Great spell. Anyone other than a wizard has to prepare it - one fewer Tasha's hideous laughter, armor of Agathys, shield, etc. - and you have to touch the thing you're reading. Safer to know the language, if possible. Opportunity cost to ritual cast it versus doing other exploration tasks too. (When are those wandering monsters going to come calling?)
  • Create Water. Addressed this in my post upthread. Others did too, by pointing out the need for containers. Ten gallons plus the necessary containers to hold it weighs a lot, particularly with the variant encumbrance rule in place.
  • Detect Magic. Opportunity cost on exploration tasks when cast as a ritual, must be prepared by non-wizards so that's one fewer 1st-level spell to bring to bear in combat, wandering monsters, etc. You now see magic stuff in the area and know its school of magic. Great! Now what? The exploration challenge isn't necessarily over yet.
  • Detect Poison and Disease. This spell needs to be prepared so that's one fewer entangle or hunter's mark - fine by me! See also Detect Magic for the trade-offs. And the exploration challenge isn't necessarily over yet either.
  • Find Familiar. Addressed in my post upthread.
  • Tenser's Floating Disk. Address in my post upthread.
  • Goodberry. One fewer entangle or hunter's mark because you don't feel like foraging while traveling or carrying some rations is just fine by me. Having actual food is also pretty useful when it comes to dealing with ravenous beasts in my experience.
  • Identify. Great spell if you're pressed for time, but you may as well just wait for the next short rest, if trying to figure out what a magic item does. As with all rituals, it has a time cost - what can happen during that time? What other useful task aren't you doing while you're casting the ritual?
  • Purify Food and Drink. I'd love to see a paladin burn a potential smite on this spell. The cleric and druid will have to prepare it, too. What other useful combat spell might they have prepared instead? And again, opportunity cost on other tasks and wandering monsters when?
  • Speak With Animals. Strikes me as more of a social interaction challenge spell. As for being DM dependent, the whole game is that way. I tend to be generous with information from animals, if the PCs succeed at the social interaction challenge. Simply talking to the squirrel isn't a guarantee that he'll tell you about more than his nuts.
  • Unseen Servant. Useful in some circumstances, but again, this might only work on some traps. And if the traps do damage to the unseen servant, they're gone (1 hp). With a Strength of 2, they can't carry much or push/pull/drag with very much force. As with others, opportunity cost on other tasks if cast as a ritual.
So what you've done here is present a list of useful tools the players can bring to bear in many situations. But none of them are free of costs or trade-offs when actually put into the context of situations where there is at least some time pressure or urgency (which, per the DMG, random encounters are for in part as are event-based adventures). I think anyone who has a strong exploration element in their games sees these trade-offs and costs come up again and again. The players have to make meaningful choices as a result. That's certainly been my experience. There's no I-win button here.
That's why I enforce 10 minutes exploration turns and always check for wandering monsters as needed. B/X style.

The game tends to work better If you actually handle it as a game rather than just storytelling.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Okay. Let's say I don't know where X is other than in the area of Y and I just head off to get to X. What's the consequence of doing so without plan or navigation? Is it that I don't get to X because I get...?
You don't know where X is, so you can't navigate to X. You can navigate to Y, but then you still have to figure out where X is in Y, which will likely involve exploration.
 

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